#002: Living Boundaries

Forerunner Mentoring’s Stephen Murray offers advice to those of us who struggle to live with healthy boundaries, especially in the context of mentoring and discipleship relationships. In this episode, we talk honestly about boundaries: what are they, when do we need them, and what happens when they fail? 

We also have a freebie for you: a guide to setting boundaries in any mentorship or discipleship relationship you may have. We believe healthy boundaries give us the freedom to live the MORE of relationships as God intended them! 

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Transcript

spk_0:   0:01
Welcome to the live. The more podcast will re explore going deeper and intimacy with God, finding meaning and satisfaction in our day and making a lasting impact on our world. Hey, welcome to the live the more podcast I'm your host, Jon Jordan, with a very special podcast episode today with a good friend of mine and Stephen Murray from Forerunner Mentoring. He has a podcast called You Can Mentor, and he's going to be joining us today, talking about something that is really important and in the past 15 years has had a lot of play and a lot of buzz. And that is one simple word. Boundaries. I don't know if any of you have ever read the book by Henry Cloud and, um, and Doctor Townsend, Dr John Townsend, but that book made a lot of waves when it came out. I remember exactly when it came out about 10 years ago or so no much longer than that 1992. But I know that that book has gone through circles of my friends over and over again because many of us struggle with how do we have healthy boundaries and so I wanna welcome Stephen to the podcast. Welcome, Stephen.

spk_1:   1:13
Thank you, John. So glad to be with you.

spk_0:   1:16
It's great to have you. So, um, Stephen and I go back a ways. I met Steven around. I guess it was 2012. 2013 and my wife and I were living in Dallas. This is before we went back to Budapest and Ah, Steven at that time. Ah. What were you doing?

spk_1:   1:35
Uh, I was your neighbor. That's what I was doing. Uh, you you live right down the road. And, uh, we would drink coffee all the time. Those for my favorite moments together.

spk_0:   1:48
That's right. That's right. You were also that you were also working for an amazing church there in Dallas.

spk_1:   1:55
Yes. Working for any art community church doing college ministry. Which was, I guess I did it for six years. Which was a fun experience, stretching experience, kind of. Right after I graduated college jumped in toe leading a college ministry, and my I mean, my story was I got saved in college, and so I was excited toe help other students start a relationship with Jesus, just like I did when I was a freshman. So

spk_0:   2:32
Yeah. No, that's great. Yeah. One of the things I remember about Steven is about you is is just the your willingness yours in in Katie's. Your wife's willingness to open your home can have people come in and be a part of your life. And it made a big impact. And it made a big impact on me because obviously I would come over and, uh, bum off of you all of your high quality coffee. And you were the first person that taught me how to, like, let one hot water cool for a report on the crowd. Um, not to use milk in coffee.

spk_1:   3:11
A man. Come on, all

spk_0:   3:12
of these highfalutin snobbery that we coffee snows subscribed to

spk_1:   3:19
Yeah. If there's if there's one form of social justice that I believe in, it's It's not milk in your coffee. Um, I just think that abomination much like I mean, like, country music, tuna and mustard. And I think milk in your coffee would be the fourth abomination, so? Well, yeah, and I won't say

spk_0:   3:44
wrong about country music.

spk_1:   3:45
Yeah, I will say we had all those roommates because rent was so expensive, but we didn't have boundaries in order to get them to pay us. So it didn't I didn't actually work out like we had planned.

spk_0:   4:00
We'll jump a part of part of the reason why I have you on this podcast Because yeah, you so epically failed it

spk_1:   4:08
back, huh? True. Here it is so true. So

spk_0:   4:16
No, no, no. I've seen some really cool stuff from you as well, in terms of healthy boundaries. And so talk to us about what you're doing. Now, where are you now, In terms of your career On what do you do?

spk_1:   4:28
Yeah, so I think something that I've recognized over the years are just these kind of divine rhythms and callings that God has on my life. My wife's life. Um, and I particularly have started to recognize the connection between all of these different things that feel like God's called me to feel like I've always felt attached to the least of these. Just when I'm when I think about the least of these, that's something I want to be a part of. Come. When I jumped into college Ministry, uh, usually I I was just drawn toward the students on the outer edges of what is probably the normal cultural standards. So if you're an SM ugh, I wasn't necessarily reaching the kid with the spare ease and the fishing shirts and the fraternity. Kind of I don't know what you conceive of a regular Southern Methodist University student to be. It was mostly the theater kids and the people, which, actually the theater is a very awesome program in sm you. So I don't mean that as like, those guys are on the outer bounds of what S and U Student is, but it's just not really normal conception of it is right and and and also, I mean, just finding myself in relationship with refugees with asylum seekers and people in our society who are on the outer edges very literally and having outcome into life in America and don't fit in. Ah, and what I recognized within, within all of those things that God was leading me into is that really they connect to God's heart? I got many times in the Scripture. God talks about his heart for the stranger. His heart, for the father was his heart. For the widow, all the people that are on the outer edges of our society. God has it a distinct heart for those kind of people. Um and so what I recognize is that really God was calling me into his heart and what I recognized. I was disciple in a lot of college students who did not have dad's in their life whether their dad had died there. Dad had been absent. Their dad, they never note, knew them. All of those situations really attached me to this kind of fatherly hard that let me into my current role, which I now work for foreign or mentoring, which is a mentoring organization that provides mentors for boys from father absent homes. And so, really, the whole idea is that relationships change lives and that for every boy in our community, really, they need an example of figure in their life to show them what it means to be a man, and so that that fatherly kind of calling that I've felt and see throughout this divine rhythm and calling in my life, I'm getting actually tow, walk in and in a greater level now. But it's not different than doing College Ministry. It's not different than serving refugees and asylum seekers It's all connected to the same heart, the heart of God, for those who are on the edges of our society. So, so good. So yes.

spk_0:   8:10
Oh, good. Yet And so tell us a little bit about the podcast.

spk_1:   8:15
Yeah, so the podcast you can mentor. We named it that because you can mentor. That's that's just our main desires to equip every man and woman to recognize that God's called them to influence someone other than their family, their bloodline, whatever I feel like the church is designed to be a place where we learn how to serve someone who and commit to someone who's not a part of our own family. And so the whole idea behind the podcast is destroying and dispelling all of the myths that come with mentoring, specifically Christian youth mentoring. But I think a lot of people feel a lot of pressure of, Well, I'm not spiritually enough or I don't have enough bandwidth or I don't know what I would say, and I don't I don't know what I can give. And really, the whole point of our podcast is just to show that everyone has a relationship to give, and in your relationship there are, there's a transaction. There's a mutually transforming thing that happens when we relate with one another. And so particularly when you're relating with someone who has a relation a ll deficit, like not having a relationship with their dad. There's a lot of transformation that can occur when you jump into that relationship. And so are our podcasts about overcoming common mentoring obstacles. But the main one being that you don't believe you could mentor.

spk_0:   9:55
That's beautiful. Yeah, for those of you who haven't listened to the UK mentor podcast, especially from the place where you're spending a lot of time with younger people like, for example, here in Budapest, I'm teaching. And I listen to the UK mentor podcast because it really helps reinforce truths about how I can really to my students and how I can be available for mentoring and what that could look like. And so I know I personally have benefited Ah, lot from it. Um, so for you personally, Steven, like, how how has mentoring or how has has it has older people coming alongside you in life, uh, impacted you personally, like prior to you becoming a college pastor like what were the Who were the people or whether that look like for you?

spk_1:   10:47
Yeah. I mean, I obviously I mentioned I came to know Jesus in college, and I remember an older man. His name was David Daniel. He actually don't know how old he is. I feel like he's maybe 40 almost 40. Probably like you, John. Um, I don't know if you're almost 40 but

spk_0:   11:09
seems really old. I'm not like you have a kid,

spk_1:   11:12
okay? But he just knocked on my dorm room door and invited me into a Bible study. And what I would later find that he wasn't just invited me into a Bible study. He was inviting me into so much more than that. He was inviting into relationship. He was inviting me in tow, personal investment, spiritually growth and, uh, and then into a community. And so there were so many other invitations connected to that one invitation. Um, and that was a very transformative time for me. My life growing up, I wasn't a part of the church. I had very few friends. And if I did have friends, they were Mormon. And so, uh, which is ridiculous. But, um the we would just have land parties and not drink Doctor Pepper. And, uh, we wouldn't really do anything crazy, but, ah, but I was always confused when it came to issues of faith. And so it was really helpful when I was brought into this community that was hungry for God and searching and asking questions and wondering how I was doing, uh, helping me to be introspective and think for the first time, honestly, and that that experience, uh, really, like, started the wheels in my mind and in my heart moving toward this is what I'm made for, made for community. I made for people to surround me, to invest in me and for me to do the thing for me to invest in them and for that reciprocal part of relationships toe to occur. And so, as I received, I was freed up to give, and I think that that was huge for me when I graduated college. I remember a guy, uh, his name is John Crow. Uh, when I first moved to Dallas, had no friends up here and is the older man, and he said, Hey, I'd love to invest in your life and on and help you in your relationship with God. And I was like, that sounds awesome. And so he would meet up at the church with me and pray with me and encouraged me and porn in my life. And I would ask him questions Confess sin. For about six months, I didn't even recognize that this guy lived in Fort Worth and that he was driving an hour to come meet with me on and pray for me and invest in me, and then he would go home, and that blew me away. That that he was willing to take the time toe. I mean, really used the margin that he had in his life for me, if that makes sense and really that that was a sacrifice. I was like, Wow, that is very challenging to me. Even that he wouldn't even say that to me that he was taking an hour there and back toe. You invest in me and not make a big deal about it. Um, I think that spoke volumes to me about my own worth and value, and that was huge so that those were kind of to, um instances of me being mentor. That really gave me visions for what I want to be about.

spk_0:   14:34
That's beautiful. That's so great. And you know, when I when I hear you talk about this, I love how you have found such an easy intersection between your faith and discipleship following Jesus and mentoring. And it sounds like the people who did this for you. They kept it really simple, you know? Yeah. I don't know if that's true. It seems like from what I'm hearing Is that the case that they keep it pretty simple into Yes, yeah, media,

spk_1:   15:03
Extremely relational. Extremely simple, not overcomplicated. Ah, lot of questions. Not a lot of preaching or sermons are so good. And so I just think relationship is is the main piece. It's so key just to be with one another to be present, Uh, rather than presenting something that makes so

spk_0:   15:30
good. Yeah, yeah, that's so good. So let's let's then talk about boundaries. So as you think about mentoring and you're entering into a relationship with people, some of whom, like you said, are coming from really difficult backgrounds where they may not have a grid for what is emotionally healthy or what is relation Aly Healthy? Um, can you tell us, like just some experiences about how you have learned about boundaries in general?

spk_1:   16:00
Yeah, or and I'll just say that it's great when you decide to mentor someone and it's your decision. It's another thing when someone is seeking your mentor ship and and it's it's not something that's communicated or, ah, commitment is being made. It's just I'm trying to get this from you. And so I think that's the main thing that I've recognized particular when it comes to boundaries, is that it? It's really great when we decide I want to invest in you and when we have that kind of intentionality that that's all so many problems and issues when it comes to talk to this conversation about boundaries and mentor. Yeah, um, most of the time were mentoring people that we don't even know that we're mentoring just because we don't have boundaries and we're investing in a lot of different people. It's kind of like I think I imagine in my head, like a bounce house like that, really, We've set up our bounce house. We have all this stuff. We're drawing people to invest and they're just jumping in. And we're not recognizing how many people are in the bounce house. And we're like, Okay, everyone's kicking and screaming. All right, everyone, get out and you just pull people out on you. Care the bounce house down because you're so frustrated How irresponsible everyone's being inside this. This place that you set up for people to be, have fun and and to enjoy the experience of you. Um and so I think they're just very It can get out of control really fast when we're

spk_0:   17:38
at a time when it when it got Wanna hear a story? Tell us about a time when you when you realized in, In retrospect, er during the occasion Yeah, This'll is getting out of control. I really I really wish I had to set like a healthy boundary.

spk_1:   17:54
Yeah, well, the first thing that comes to mind is I had ah been married about a year. Katie and I moved into a house in lower green feel here, which is a very hipster kind of spot. Near s Ambu. Now there's a Trader Joe's over there has tak trader Joe's, But ah man, there was this knock on my door one day, which usually knocks on your door doesn't happen unless something that's gonna happen. Like someone's gonna sell you A T and t wireless or, I don't know, some Jehovah's Witness coming at you. And so I opened the door and there's this old man standing there, and the first words out of his mouth are, Oh, you have a piano. And before I can even address him, he is walking into my house to play my piano. I don't I don't really know what to do in this moment, but he starts playing my piano, and I'm I'm just so confused at this point. He's good at piano, Let me tell you, like there he was actually like, very good. And I was very impressed because, I mean, he he looked like, obviously was down on his luck. I assumed he was experiencing homelessness and had walked into my house just to play piano. I know that wasn't his intention when he walked up to my door, but it was definitely his entry point in. I was infused, Um, and so Katie and I were just sitting there looking at each other. Like what? In the heck is going on? Uh, he finishes playing his interlude. Uh, I don't know if it was Bach or Beethoven or whatever it was, but and then he asked me for money. That sounds like Okay, this guy just walked into my house, can bust and now is demanding money. Um and so I introduced myself and we had a little conversation. Then he mentioned, uh, that he was, ah, veteran and his personal experience where he was at at this point, and Katie and I decided to give him 20 bucks. And so we bless him and hey, went on his way. We thought that was the end of the, um but what ended up happening over the next year, just about once a week, he would come to our house and knock on the door, and I mean seemingly I mean, it's innocent. He's not doing anything aggressive that would make us feel unsafe. Or, um yeah, like any any of those feelings of, like anxiety because of something he's saying or doing while at the same time, there's this this visceral feeling of like, this is not how it's supposed to be like that. My home isn't supposed to be a place that anyone just can come knock on my door and ask something off me. Um or, uh, and that really became apparent justice and how uncomfortable we began to feel in our own home. And this wasn't just a re occurring. Hey, I'll see you next Monday. It was random. Any time of the week, he could just show up and we wouldn't know he was coming. And so that created this level of anxiety of we don't know when someone's gonna ask something of us. And we just kind of lived in that spot for, I mean, literally a year and right. I didn't do anything about it, Um, which I think was just obviously a failure on my part. Come and his asks became more great. It would be I need you to drive me over here. I need you to do this. I need you to help me with this. And eventually, I mean, eventually. Yeah, it just it just we got to the point, that breaking point, which I feel like everyone gets to when it comes to boundaries. Usually we set boundaries when we're trying to break off a relationship not toe like salvage it. And so I was like, Listen, buddy, uh, this is not how it's gonna be And I don't want to see you anymore, like those kind of covers And, uh, those air super painful. And now granted some things that happened where I had caught him in a lie and I had recognized that was dropping him off at a drug house and all this other stuff, and that's a completely different story. But But ultimately, you reach a breaking point. We're like enough is enough and you draw a boundary. That's like you've reached the unforgivable spot of what I'm able to do. And, uh, yeah, that's that's not a comfortable spot to get

spk_0:   23:05
Thio well in in that situation. And I would love to hear What did you learn is a healthy boundary, because I think here we are talking about boundaries, and maybe we can kind of press pause and zoom out of it and say, Well, what is a boundary and and what is it? Healthy. And so with that situation, what did you learn is a healthy boundary?

spk_1:   23:29
Yeah. I mean, I think the and this is something that everyone deals with when it comes to sales salesman. I mean, there's no difference between someone selling you WiFi and someone standing on this side of the road with the God bless you sign. They're right there each trying to get something from you. Alright, which that sign, I might as well say like, you're a disappointment to humanity. And you suck if you don't help me. Um, but

spk_0:   24:01
anyone who's holding it, you might get that feeling. Yeah,

spk_1:   24:04
yeah, and so I I just think that that really, uh, we have to recognize what we're responsible for and what someone else is responsible for. And if we don't come to a conclusion of what that is, I think we we just get out of balance. And so But what's helped me and in just the process of failing in setting boundaries, is that it's forced me to recognise what God has called me to and then to also recognize what God has called other people too. And so and so there's a level of responsibility that you recognize that this is the space I'm responsible for. This is a space you're responsible for. So, like, if I if I put food in my mouth. It's not gonna make you fat. It's gonna make me fat and like that, that concept Wow, mind blowing my body is something I'm responsible for. And

spk_0:   25:09
I don't know the Texas State Fair there in Dallas. If I watched you eat something from that fair, I might get fat myself. So anyway,

spk_1:   25:20
so yeah. And so I mean, the same is true about our emotions because, really, our emotions air rooted in us. Now, what you do may affect how I feel in my emotions, but I'm responsible for them. Um, and and so really, in those situations where you recognize that one of those boundaries which not all boundaries air, physical, a lot of them are invisible emotional, relational, spiritual. But you feel when they're being pressed on, uh, it's it's your responsibility to communicate that. And, um, I I feel like in this situation Ah, better way to go about. This conversation would probably just to clearly communicate expectations with with this piano man that comes into your house, which I think that's just a great, great picture. I mean, a mental picture in our head is what do you do when someone walks in your house without your permission and starts playing your piano, huh? That's it. That's a good That's a good I guess. Mental picture for youto have any time some you feel that pressing in on yourself. And so ultimately, um, I think what I've recognized is I need to create the the margin where those requests can be made and then also create boundaries where these these things will not be an entrenched upon and crouched upon. And so, for some people, they allow people into the space that's met specifically for their own emotional health and well being, rather than creating space in their life where other people can come draw from in. Uh, it's like there's their space that we have toe develop naturally and healthfully. And most of it, I mean, related to time, because I think time is one of the greatest resource is that we can give to somebody. And that's also something that we need to guard against is giving someone our time. Um, particularly when it comes to, I guess boundaries is that we need to recognize. Okay, how am I being a good steward of everything? God's given me My possessions. My emotional health, my time, my resource is all of those things. And then recognizing how can I use those to benefit other people? Come which I think usually the problem is when we start doing what someone, what God has called someone else to do. And so our boundaries are being encroached upon when someone's asking us to do what God has called them to do rather than us, and so that that's that's something that has really helped me to recognize that in any of these situations, unhealthy nous comes when I'm start doing what God has called someone else to do.

spk_0:   28:39
That's really good, and I think especially as a CZ followers of Jesus, I want to dive into more of that. But the words that jump out to me wanted stewardship and like personal responsibility, you know, what is God called you to? I think those air really, really good phrases and words toe hone in on because I think is a follower of Jesus at times, especially if you live like where you guys lived over there in lower green vole. You know you are in the face of people who are experiencing homelessness and here in Budapest, it's everywhere. Like I walk off the metro platform, I get off the bus, I walk down my street in front of the bakery. Like there. There are people who are experiencing homelessness everywhere, and I often have to talk to my son about Well, when do I When do I help? And and I try to help when I can. But as a follower of Jesus, it could be really challenging to know Win. And how do you draw boundaries? And so how have you How have you reconciled that? Because I know that, you know, you've been in a situation where you were taken advantage of by someone who who was in need, and we know that like you said, the beginning of this podcast God's heart is for the least of these, right? Jesus says, whatever you do to the least of these you do to me. And yet at the same time, I've been in situations where I've been robbed by by, um, homeless people and and didn't see it coming, you know, and and I was kind of naive and wanting to help, and and so how have you reconciled with that living in Dallas and and maybe not just with homeless people, but in general, as a follower of Jesus. Whether it's with your finances or your time or your emotions, how have you set healthy boundaries? And when have you found Okay, now it's time to open the boundaries up.

spk_1:   30:32
Yeah, What I found to be helpful is when I acknowledge what something is going to cost me. And so when you live at the edge of your capacity or your boundaries, that is a place of high exposure. And so our tendency is to, I mean and rightfully so. We should hang out in the middle and and not just be at the edge, stretching ourselves all the time because I think that can lead to a place of unhealthy nous. Just like when you work out, you need days to allow your muscles to rebuild and to grow strength. And and that the act of working out is the act of breaking yourself down and then coming back Thio Okay. How can I rebuild and grow strength? And I think that when it comes to boundaries, our tendency is to go to the outer bounds of what we're capable of get burned and then go back to the middle and stay there for forever and on and just grow callused toward the world. And I think that for me, what I mean, just just like in working out, it's a choice. No one forces me to go to the gym. Let me tell you, um, I honestly do bi annual workouts. And so I don't even know why I'm using an illustration of working out. But when I work out, it's a choice. And I think it's the same when it comes to our boundaries, when we are taking ourselves to the limit one more time way. Need to know. We need to have counted the cost in order for that to keep us from growing callous and leading us to a place of just where we're done. We're done with this ministry deal we're done with. Serving people were done with being any a gram to for a while, and and so I think just that in itself, recognizing when you're making a decision, is this taking you to the outer bounds, and if so, is it worth it? Are you willing to count the cost of doing.

spk_0:   33:05
And how long will you be there?

spk_1:   33:06
And how long will you be? That's a That's a great question. And so many times we've invited people to live with us toe move in and did not create a a limit to that. We just said, Lord, are you calling us to this and felt a sense of peace? Okay, but not ask the question. Okay? For how long A man and what are what are the bounds of what we deem as acceptable behavior and I'm not

spk_0:   33:40
turn out

spk_1:   33:41
and yeah, And so when you don't create that kind of conversation and count the cost, you end up with pimps coming to your house and BMW sitting in your driveway for six months and crazy stuff going on, that leads you tow, change your phone number because you haven't set good boundaries. And and so all of those things are relate to, uh, this this inability to count the cost. Um and and I think that I mean, that's That's a very biddle, Cole kind of, ah view toe Live your life by Is that you? Have you set up? Have you short yourself up to finish this project or toe to finish building this house. And then when? When is it gonna be done by? And I mean, you go. I don't know if you've ever been toe islands in the finding the West Indies, but everyone is building a house, but no one starts building their house with all the funds that they have. So right. You'll drive for miles and you'll just see houses that have foundation and maybe a few bricks. And they'll sit there for years upon years upon years because everyone's just building as they go.

spk_0:   34:59
It's that way in ah, in Romania. Here in the country, next to hungry, you condone drive into, um, towns and cities where there's a large Roma population, or sometimes what's called Gypsy. And it's the same thing. There's a lot of these houses that air immaculate on the outside, but then they don't have front doors or windows living in them because they didn't count the cost. Yeah, sets you created. It's a good analogy.

spk_1:   35:26
Yeah, And so, I mean, when when it comes to setting our own personal boundaries, we we allow ourselves to get into a situation where we're stuck and we feel like we're trapped and helping somebody, and then most of that is related to, uh I mean someone else's failure. But once we add ourselves into that, we become a part of building someone else's house. So, uh, that that's a very taxing, uh, place to be. And I don't necessarily think that Jesus has called us to do what he's called someone else to do.

spk_0:   36:13
Yeah, I think that's a really good. That's a really good analogy and a really good example. I remember about a year ago, year and 1/2 ago I was invited to go and study on the campus of Cambridge to do some research, and I felt really out of my league. I felt like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to Cambridge. It's like this. You know, Hetty, you know, Ah ah, traditional place where you have people like Stephen Hawking and others who have been there. Isaac Newton and I remember talking Thio, my old Greek professor, and he said, Listen, man, it's all about just doing with what you have in your two hands, like what do you have John like? What are you going to do? What is God called you? to What has he given you? Don't worry about the other people around. You just focus on that and that really, like, calmed me down. And it got me less thinking about it said a boundary for me to where? I'm not like having to compare myself to all these other people. But I'm just thinking, Hey, this is just who I am and I may not be the smartest person who's gonna walk into this building in this library, but I'm gonna do what I have. We're going to do whatever I can with what I have. You know what I mean?

spk_1:   37:24
Absolutely. In that. That is such a grace when we recognize what's us and what's other, what's what someone else or what? Something else. And so once we determine that, that can actually keep us from, I guess, the temptation of comparison because we're running our race, not someone else's rate. And so in out Lane, you know, and we're being faithful to what God has called us to not faithful to what God has called us to you and to what he's called you, too. And and I think in a lot of ways, particularly in Ministry. There's a lot of room for comparison when it comes to, um long being effective and someone being ineffective. And so we lose our boundaries because we are seeking to compare our calling to someone else's calling in their ministry. And so maybe my ministry is not big enough because I'm not doing enough. And that is that's the trap of comparison when our boundaries become so loose because we we think that we're not doing enough

spk_0:   38:45
right. And then you start saying Okay, well, I need to do more. And so you push it and you push it to the outer limit like you were saying And then before you know it, you've been there for a year and you start you start to present the people because I've walked through Burnell in ministry and, you know, I started to, like, actually resent the people I was ministering to was like, What is going on with me? And it wasn't their fault. It was my responsibility. Like I was saying yes to everybody. I wasn't setting healthy boundaries toe workout and, you know, re books for fun or take care of myself. I was Everything was all go all the time. You're totally right. It's a It's a big trap. And for me it was a lot about just insecurity, but also about not setting healthy boundaries.

spk_1:   39:31
Yeah, yeah, I found myself asking the question. What would Jesus do? And I would find myself doing everything Jesus would d'oh! And, um, that's a great question. But at the same time, like I am not Jesus Her. I'm not the answer. The solution to every problem, the savior for everything, right, is heaven on earth and night. And so that question is the better thing to ask somebody than to ask yourself because good. Because if someone's looking for a solution from me and I asked myself, what would Jesus do? Then I'm going to just do it. But what I should do is in power enable and press them toward asking themselves that question. That's

spk_0:   40:28
so good. That's so good. Of what? Yeah, sorry, I just you

spk_1:   40:33
know, no. And so I mean and that's that's just a natural part of what boundaries create boundaries, create empowerment. They don't keep us from helping people, they enable us to help people. And that's something that for the longest time I didn't recognize and s Oh, that's That's just a natural part of the development process. Is us enabling people toe be themselves and to be responsible for themselves. And I mean, yeah, that's that's huge.

spk_0:   41:11
Yeah, yeah, In the connection to mentoring, we talked about a couple of things here we've talked about relating thio those who were impoverished or those who are experiencing homelessness. And the temptation, I think, is in that situation. You see the need and you think I want to help, and that could be a positive. That could be a very good desire, but then it can also move into. I also want to fix this and you feel pressure, and then all of a sudden, maybe you're kind of outside of your boundaries, and it's hard to know when it is your responsibility to actually help and and when it because I know like there's there's friends of mine who say, You know, they refused to give anything to the poor, Um, because they're gonna rely on their church to do stuff, and they're gonna invest in their church in Southern Church will do that for them, but also no friends who who say no. Jesus said, give to those who ask of you and so I'm going to give something any time I'm asked and, um, I think about all of that and I think that's a does their things to wrestle with for a later time. But I think about all that. And I think that mentoring and I imagine that you probably would never want somebody coming to you guys threw four runner and saying, Hey, I want a mentor some of these young men, because I just feel so bad for them and that's it. I just I just gotta exit like, you know, like, I would imagine that you guys probably want a little more than that, right? I mean, what do you look for when you look for a mentor?

spk_1:   42:39
Yeah. I mean, I think I think there is a level of, um I guess, personal empathy when it comes when it comes to jumping into mentoring that that there is ah, level of men I'm feeling compassion for. Yeah, Yeah, this kid at at the same time there is, I mean, an abundance of belief just that that band relationships do change lives. And so ah, I mean, I think for the most part, when it comes to, uh, mentoring, particularly kids from hard places, what we try toe equip our mentors to understand is that their role is not to change everything about this kid's situation. Then that there are some things that some needs that you will meet and there are some means that you will not meek and then and that is okay, Um and you have to be okay with that. Ah, lot of our mentors will, I mean something we ran into over Christmas. Everyone's wanting to give their kid a Christmas gift, and and that that's a very healthy, normative cultural practice. Sure, at the same time, if you come from a higher socio economic status and you start mentoring a kid from a lower socioeconomic status and you start bridging your experience, that can be a fairly different experience for both of those people. And so the kids, like, for example, like the kids in the kids of our mentors, have a completely different life than the kids that their mentoring. So this the mentors kid may have a bike, have a basketball goal, have an Xbox one. The kid there. Mentoring may have a basketball, but that's it. Ah, May may or may not have dinner tonight. And so, ultimately, when the mentor who is a fluent comes into a relationship with a kid who is not a fluent, they're temptation is to create a childhood that looks like their child's childhood. Um, and what that creates is an unhealthy not only an unhealthy expectation for the relationship, but an unhealthy perspective for the child who is coming from a lower socioeconomic status because it's creating a different standard. And so I think that's something that is difficult for for us to understand, particularly when it comes to to boundaries, is that we just think, Well, whatever I have to offer that's going toe toe help. And I think what people are recognizing in sociology circles and the development of communities is that that exchange that contrast that you create as a mentor can really I guess, Miss Align the expectations of of really, um, this kid moving forward in life, what what that looks like. And so once he loses this mentor, this mentor moves away. Now he has this this feeling of entitlement or of well I wish things were like this. I wish my mom could provide this for me. I wish that I had dinner with and and there's this distaste and just discomfort in disorientation that happens when a mentor doesn't recognize the disparity between the experience. And so I mean,

spk_0:   46:46
how do you How do you manage that? I mean, that seems so hard because on one hand you have mentors who were just wanting to help. On the other hand, you have these men mentees doe column mentees. Yeah, well, it is Mantes. Yeah. So how do you manage that?

spk_1:   47:01
It's the same thing that our friends Austin Street Shelter We have some friends at our church to run a homeless ministry. And obviously we're speaking in generalities here, but But when you provide ah, three meals, a bed and all these resource is to those experiencing homelessness and don't create steps to personal responsibility and and steps out the door rather than just things that that make you want to belong there but belong elsewhere and two before it in life and become independent, what happens is you cut people off from what they're responsible for. And so and so I mean, it's It's the same thing in a house that's a fluent that, ah, father, who provides everything for his kid and and does everything for them and fills out their college applications and write, write all that stuff. It sets them up for failure because they haven't learned what it looks like to become themselves, and

spk_0:   48:16
then they can't even bigger on laundry when they leave the house.

spk_1:   48:18
Exactly, Exactly, Yeah, And so that that experience is is something that we want our mentors to understand, what their role is and what their role is not. But most people want the experience of doing everything for someone because we derive a sense of meaning and calling and pleasure out of helping and serving and doing. And but what that creates is way we kick people's that legs out from under them and don't teach them how to be responsible themselves. We'd rather give people money rather than teach them how to budget

spk_0:   48:59
right. And the psychological term is co dependency. You know, eggs, iron people become so dependent upon you for for everything that you cease to fully exist as a CZ you've been made to become and they seize two full exist, you're you're co dependent and yeah, I've seen a lot. I've done a lot of that in my earlier years of ministry where I tried to be the everything person and be everything to everyone and, um, seen a lot of that as well. And so yeah, it really sets people up for failure and it sets up. I know, for in my experience, it sets up those really hard conversations where it's like I can't do this anymore. This is toxic now where if some healthy boundaries have been put in places like Hey, here's my responsibility ends and where yours begins They're probably at least in my experience, even here in Budapest had some experiences like that, it would have really averted a lot of heartache.

spk_1:   49:56
Yeah, and, uh, I think just in general, for me boundaries saying no has always been difficult for me. Ah, as in any a gram to and just in general, saying no is just a very negative experience for me. But when I've recognized is that when I say no, I'm giving someone the opportunity to grow and that that is not something that I've operated in I've always seen know as this emotional failure, or I wish I would've or God iata No, my no is helping someone grow even if my know comes from a place of callousness and burnt out and I just can't like it's still giving someone's face to grow good and so that that is something that has helped me to say no more and more. And now I think we need tohave cheerful obedience. So what God has called us to and what God calls us to is the stretching is to go to the outer bounds and to be in the place where we're offering him what we have. And there's so much grace there for him to empower us to do what we can't do. But on Lee, what we can do in his power. Well, at the same time, we have to have the willingness to say no because of what God has called us to. And so

spk_0:   51:40
so can you think of a situation? And I think this will help bridges toe like, practical steps. Can you think of a situation and maybe share a story of when you you seemed to set healthy boundaries in some kind of, um it could be mentoring. It could just be relationship with you and Katie. But if you can't make it with mentoring, that would be great where you seem to have set healthy boundaries. And he took some practical steps and, like, what was the result? What took place?

spk_1:   52:08
Uh, yeah. I mean, I think something that even just yesterday is ah is a good Ah, Yesterday is a really good example of what this looks like. The last night at 11. 30 at night, I had a conversation with my roommate and I was following up on a conversation we had had about him moving out. Okay,

spk_0:   52:38
So this is someone who's living in your home with you and Katie? Yes. I just wanna make sure for people listening. Your roommate is not your wife that you're talking

spk_1:   52:47
about Getty about her leaving

spk_0:   52:51
Carl, bring my roommate from time to time. Just you know, e

spk_1:   52:55
I hope no one calls their wife there. Remain Not do anyway. Okay. Not kating. Yes. Yeah. So So we've we've had someone living with us this past year who has been working through the process of seeking asylum, becoming an immigrant and ah, becoming a U S citizen. Um, and in that process, we've had conversations about rent, about, um, responsibilities around the house about correcting behaviors or things that that happened that aren't helpful for our household. But last night we had a conversation about him moving out, a follow up conversation and one of the things that he said in our conversation, he said, Steven, I want you to know that every conversation we've had, where you've told me to do something, I it's it's given me freedom to know what I need to do. And so as he's lived in my house and I've told him things to do that's helped him so much and understanding what he's responsible for. And sometimes those conversations have not been things that I've walked away with thinking, Oh, how that went really well or yeah, I totally botched that conversation. But any time I had a conversation with him about what I expect of him that freed him up rather than put a weight on him. And while that was something that was really I mean, helpful for me to hear, um, last night he told me that today he is signing a lease and he's moving out this week. I didn't know he was doing that. I never really see him because he's working 80 hours a week, tryingto make a way for himself to get his family here and, well, all that stuff. And so that's been a very healthy situation where we've been ableto have conversations about boundaries and expectations, and, um, over the course of this year, we've seen him grow and responsibility and grow to the point where he is now becoming more independent, beautiful and rather like. In one instance, he, I mean, probably six months in tow. Our relationship. He had asked me for help and buying a car, I told him, But you're not even paying rent right now. You are not in a place to have transportation and take on the responsibility of insurance in upkeep and maintenance and gas and all of those things, and so you need to take one step at a time. And that was a difficult conversation because for him I mean, he's an adult, he's not a kid, but that is that is me speaking truth and helping him develop the plan and now what came of those conversations was I mean, he took more responsibility and finding ways to get to work on time. And even if it takes him an hour, an hour and 1/2 2 hours to get to work, which, honestly, that's crazy that our transportation service hasn't figured that out yet to help people get around our city. It shouldn't take you two hours to get five miles away from here. But that's another conversation to Theo. But those conversations, even though they're difficult, they create space for him to grow. And for me to be freed up to do it, I've been called to and not just help people do what they're called to.

spk_0:   57:01
No good. So good. Um, a man. That's so good. Stephen, I I think one of the reasons as I'm sitting here listening to you, I'm super thankful that you're on this podcast because, um, I see the way you and Katie live your lives and inviting people into your homes and caring for people who are sojourners immigrants and carrying for young people. And and yet at the same time, your care doesn't just look like giving them everything that they asked for and you guys are especially you. In this situation, you're bringing the father's heart, your father in people, um, in responsibility and so

spk_1:   57:40
tight. And I thought I'd say that the practical step is saying what you're feeling And so that this that visceral feeling when someone's once crossing a boundary of yours that you mention it, you say something and then you re clarify expectations that maybe you did not communicate. And every time you do that, you create more freedom and more expectations, like creates freedom, not less freedom. And so that gives someone the ability to understand who they are and what they're responsible for, and that that independence creates growth. So that's good.

spk_0:   58:28
So So the practical step there is when a feeling or emotion or conflict comes up, talk about it. Right. So that's the number one like, So give us two more. Give us two more really practical steps for practicing healthy boundaries.

spk_1:   58:44
Yeah. I mean, I think you you had mentioned it is that recognizing, um, a timeline for, uh, these situations and so many of us will run into situations where, like, the panhandler situation, that's not necessarily something that you're gonna think about that. The timeline of this relationship is the red light to the green light. Um, that's that's what it is. But in other situations, you may have a relationship that is asking something of you. And if you're willing to give it and you have the margin to give it what what is the extent of this part of the relationship? What's the timeline for your? What's your commitment? And and I think it's it's helpful to make a clear commitment so that you feel the freedom to walk away or to say this isn't working out just as I mean, when when you hold other people accountable, that that helps them grow. And so not just putting up with everything that happens or with what what people do. Um, I think very naturally Christian as Christians were very merciful. We're very forgiving. We let things go, but there comes a point when letting things go becomes unlike destructive,

spk_0:   1:0:16
right? You enable people Yeah, and

spk_1:   1:0:19
so I I think I think that we really need toe hold people accountable. Um, and, uh, I'm the last one, I think I mean, I would say that just that really we need Thio be comfortable, Um, in doing what God has called us to and, you know, And so and maybe maybe that's just going into a place where when someone asked something of us, we actually give space to make the decision. We don't make the decision automatically. That's

spk_0:   1:1:03
really good. I just to jump in on that really quickly. I feel like in the past, I've I've gotten myself into trouble in saying yes to quickly or no too quickly. And when I really could have said, Hey, can I have a few minutes? Sir, can I have ah few days to think about that? I really knew that. So good, Steve.

spk_1:   1:1:23
And I wouldn't say minutes. I would say I'll get back to you. Yeah, we owe, uh oh, man on. And so I mean, I think women women are probably more used to this because they have to reject men's advances a lot more often. They're like, Well, hey, let me think about it or I'll get back. No, I'm busy. You're, you know. Yeah, and

spk_0:   1:1:48
yes. What? What you're saying is I need to go back to my old high school journal, everything that every girl ever said to me, and maybe you just need to take notes from them. So I knew there was a reason for that kind of rejection. I knew. It's gonna come back tonight and help me get back

spk_1:   1:2:03
to those. Yeah, but But we need to get away from viewing. No, as, ah, I don't know, wrong, Morally inferior to saying yes and so good and so good and so really in giving ourselves space too. Not just make the decision in the moment. I mean, that that will keep you from, uh, situations where you don't count the cost. How are you gonna count the cost if you're supposed to make the decision in the moment? You know, most boundaries are broken because someone's asking for a last minute thing they need you to need your help with. And people in ministry are dealing with people in crisis. And so you are so exposed to the last minute breaking of boundaries when you're in ministry and you really have to discern when to say yes and when to say no. And more often than not, we say yes, because we feel a responsibility and and honestly, I don't think that Jesus just hung out in the immediate need of the moment. There's a reason that Jesus came in hell, people who were ailing of things for years upon years upon years on. But I think that shows us something about God's not in a hurry. Um, and his his boundaries aren't just about being the the guy who is an emergency. Jesus came 2000 e. I mean, it's just like it's crazy. How long the I mean, it's not 2000 years, like 7000 years of biblical history. Before Jesus shows up on the scene. God, God is very patient and and revealing himself and showing his plans and doing things. And and we can take our time as well and not just feel so rushed and busy in ministry.

spk_0:   1:4:13
Well, Jesus seemed to give other people time to consider. So, for example, the story of the rich young ruler who comes to him and Jesus is okay, sell off everything you own and come and follow me, and he sets a boundary like he says Here, I'm gonna filter you a bit to see if you're really in it and we don't know. I mean it says that he walked away sad, but we don't know if that guy came back around later like we don't have. That's that's just not something we have insight into, but that Jesus would would challenge that person to make a decision and set a boundary of sorts, I think says a lot as well. So let me recap what you said. So first of all, feel it. Say it if you feel it. If there's a conflict in boundary or there's something you feel like you need to say that that's gonna help create a healthy boundary. If you feel it, you need to say it. Um, the timelines set a healthy timeline for the personal relationship with whatever the situation may be. And then finally just taking ownership and responsibility. Right? Amen. Yeah, dude. Well, bro, this has been incredibly helpful, I hope for those of you have been listening, I hope this has been really helpful because ah, you've you've cornered a wealth of experience. Ah, in just the short amount of time, because you're not quite as old as 40. Yet you're not dead yet, so that's good. You've picked up a lot along the way. and it's just a blessing to here. And so if people want to learn more about four, Runner and if they want Thio to hear more about what you guys do or get involved, obviously they can go to the podcast, which is you can mentor. But is there anything else that you would direct them to?

spk_1:   1:5:59
Yeah. I mean, if you're if you're interested in what we're doing in mentoring and go to fit for under mentoring dot com, we build relationships with kids in our community through mentoring after school programs and supporting single moms. And so that is our heartbeat is transforming our community through mentoring. And then also, yeah, we have the podcast. You can mentor. You can just search. You can mentor on. Yeah, anywhere you listen to podcasts. So thanks for having me on John. You're the man, and, uh, I hope people learn from my mistakes.

spk_0:   1:6:43
Me too, brother. All right, well, have a good one. Much love to all of you who were listening today. You have a wonderful day living the Maurin, pursuing more of God