#006: Self-Worth, Christian Identity, and the Apostle Paul w/ Dr. Joey Dodson

Dr. Joey Dodson helps us explore what the Apostle Paul says about our identity and self-worth. When we read the letters of Paul, we can sometimes come away with conflicting ideas about who we are as followers of Jesus. "I’m a saint. I’m a sinner. I’m a wretch. I’m beloved." So, which is it? Is it both? How do we begin sorting this out? 

In our cultural moment, the voices which validate our self-worth and ascribe value to “who we are” have never been louder! Whether it’s wearing a “not-sorry” necklace or following the “me-first” mantra, millions of people are finding that validating and shoring up their self-worth is integral to living fully alive. 

For those of us who follow Jesus and read Paul, here’s the rub: can we validate our own self-worth AND “take up our cross” to follow Jesus? Who does Paul, this pillar of the church, say we truly are and how do we follow the path of Jesus? 

In Episode #006, Dr. Joey Dodson directs us to not only the right answers, but the proper starting point for our questions. Be sure to click HERE to get a FREE exercise that will help you reflect upon what God says about who He is and who you are. 

SHOW NOTES:

0:00 - 31:00 -- Intro. and Christian Identity in Paul

31:00 - 58:00 -- Romans 7, normative Christian living, interpretative options, implications

1:04 - 1:16 -- Paul's pathway for Christian flourishing, living alive in the church

___________

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Transcript

spk_0:   0:03
Welcome to the live The more podcast will we explore going deeper and intimacy with God finding meaning and satisfaction in our day and making a lasting impact in our world. All right, welcome, everybody to another episode of the live, the more podcast. I'm really excited about today's episode. I have a friend, mentor and former professor joining us today. Dr. Joseph R. Dotson and ah, we usually just call him Joey. So welcome.

spk_1:   0:35
Yeah. Hey, man, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, it's just Joey.

spk_0:   0:40
Well, you know, in looking at your your publishing and wanting to direct people to the books that you've edited or written, just didn't want people to be thrown off track and for Joey and finding Joseph and wondering if they're one of the same. But I wanted to give a little introduction. T Joey, for all of you. Um, so Joey is ah, guy that I met in Houston when I was studying there. Houston Baptist University wouldn't, uh, he was the professor who always had this massive green bowl of salad. You river. Were you vegan dinner? Just vegetarian. Just vegetarian. Okay, but then you went full on vegan. Eventually right?

spk_1:   1:22
Yeah, About 3.5 years. Been begin.

spk_0:   1:25
Okay. Yeah. So I remember just sitting down and picking your brain. Aah! About all things theology and the deepest revelations of the universe. And just watching you munch on this massive setting. A good example. But Joey, um, is the associate professor of New Testament at Denver Seminary. Ah, He earned his PhD in New Testament from the University of Aberdeen. And there he studied Paul wisdom literature and Greco Roman philosophy under the esteemed Simon Graphical, who is now at Cambridge. Correct.

spk_1:   2:04
Correct. That's right. And Francis Watson was also my other supervisor. Whose address?

spk_0:   2:09
Right. Okay. Yeah. And so while at Aberdeen, Joey not only studied, but he learned how to wear kilts and still does to this day. Correct?

spk_1:   2:21
Only for a complication and graduation. I love it. If I was really Scotland, if I was really Scottish, I would wear one every day. They're very comfortable.

spk_0:   2:32
That's right. And ah, Joey studied there with with some great people, including press and Sprinkle. And who has the theology and the raw podcast, which I highly recommend. Yeah, Joey is also Joe. He's also a writer and Ah, Joey's written, Ah, a few books that you might have heard of or you could go check out. And that is a little book for new Bible scholars Paul and Seneca and dialogue that's more of an academic work, right? Joey? Yes. And then Paul and the Giants of philosophy. And that's your most recent publication, right? Correct. Yeah, that's a great one. I just finished that one. And I highly recommend Paul and Giants of philosophy. Um, and so Joey is also working on two commentaries. Those of the two projects you have going right?

spk_1:   3:19
That's two of the project.

spk_0:   3:21
Lovely. Yes, OK, so the Romans commentary and the Colossians flame and commentary, right?

spk_1:   3:28
That's right. Yeah, it's funny with the cautions for Lehman commentary, they asked me to write, cautions Dash by Lehman, and it's they're redoing the new American commentary. I don't know if you remember the next, and so I have been working on cautions through Philly Mons collections Dash for Lehman and I was in at SPL in San Diego and met with the the editor, and he was going through talking about who else was writing different works. And he said that Douglas moves writing the first and second Thessalonians commentary in the neck. And I was like, No, I'm writing the 1st 2nd Thessalonians. And so we found out very quickly that the dash didn't mean cautions through Filemon but Selection's and Filemon So which took a bit of a relief off the new cautions always do, for Lehman was biting off a lot. The tube. So I'm excited. I'm just doing collection and believe in

spk_0:   4:25
your close toe a whole New Testament commentary eso Joey, Uh, in addition to being a very sharp, very funny, just cool guy to hang out with, um is also a husband to Sadie and a father of five amazing kids. And so Joey were to in laws to in laws. That's right. That's right. Congratulations. Thank you. S Oh, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. It's

spk_1:   4:55
a pleasure to be here.

spk_0:   4:57
Yes, sir. Today the reason why we have Joey on is we want to talk about something that is incredibly important, especially in contemporary culture. And that is identity and self worth, and especially from a Christian perspective. And so the reason why we wanted to have Joey on is you wanted him to speak to the Pauline or the perspective as it relates to Paul when it comes to self worth and so Joey, just to kind of frame up the conversation. And then I'll just kind of let you out the gate and run a bit, and we'll let this go and see where it goes. Um, when it when it comes to the identity and self worth. Nowadays, especially if you you follow, for example, like Richard Hollis or some of the really popular writers who talk about um being worthy and that you are enough and it's not, it's important to not see yourself as a victim and to stop apologizing, be who you are, you're in control. You have this kind of really what seems like a very empowering narrative, and then you also have the biblical narrative. And in the biblical narrative, there seems to be a conflict right. Paul writes about us being saints being a part of the beloved cared for by God. But you also see language of of what it means to be a sinner, and that we need to deny ourselves, deny the flesh, and so Joey, what we wanted to talk about today is how do we reconcile this? Do I do we lay down all of our desires and forget our personality and our desires and our needs? What does Paul, who wrote 2/3 of the New Testament? Um, I have to say about some of these things, and then maybe we can dive into some specifics.

spk_1:   6:37
Yeah, so I don't mean this as a genius. Juke are any hyper qualify spiritually thing. But I think for Paul when we asked the question, Who are we? Hey, would say instead, who is Christ? So rather, if I would ask Paul, am I a senator or my saint? I think the first step is he would ask is who is Christ them? And since we talked about collections already cautioned, Shopper three is not focusing on yourself whether you're center, whether you're saint, where you've come. But instead the victor eyes on Jesus the author, ineffective parfait, the draw from Hebrews to sit to set your heart and mind. I cried. You see that the right hand of God And so the first out before we put the death what belongs to our earthly nature, cautioned 35 and following is to look at who Christ is because Christ is our life and it's interesting. We often may take this as Paul being having rhetorical Flora's sharp. He's Paul speaking in metaphor. Christ, not really our life. But I think for Paul's metaphor doesn't mean that it's not true. Metaphor is actually a truer truth. And what its literal, if you, if you will, and our posts enlightment understanding of metaphor. And so I think, the focus. When we asked the question, Who are we? We're starting off on asking the wrong question. Were clothing Christ on that? That's again. It's not just a pretty picture. That is our reality. And so our first step and asking who we are is to look atyou. Christ is, and it's not just in cautions. You have it in Philippians, where Paul says, for me to live is Christ in the diocese, gain on and Christ is my life. So yeah, I think that that is a very first step that we look at when we start understanding our identity.

spk_0:   8:19
So when you talk about, um, the metaphors that Paul uses like the including cries, for example, and you said that that is more real, maybe than than we 21st century Western readers kind of give credence to, um, you impact that a little bit. How does how does someone maybe tap into the deeper reality of that?

spk_1:   8:40
Yeah, very good. So I grew up in a while. My mom was a Church of Christ and my dad was Southern Baptist. And so when they got married, they compromised. Became Missionary Baptist. And how the mission about Mr Babbitt's really great about sharing the gospel on the A, B. C's of the Force, Virtual laws and really our identity was found in Christ for giving us of our sins. So we start off with where center on, and we deserve to go to hell. That was our first step. And ah, Christ loved us so much that he gave us life that you want. We were sinners. Christ died for us to bring in Romans and therefore if we pray and so it's interesting that our first step was that we were centers and the pastor made sure that he shares every Sunday how much of centers we are. And it's true we are senators, we, uh, and we need to be reminded of that. That career of Have mercy on me, a sinner. Oh God. But because of that, the primary metaphor the primary picture of salvation for us was that Christ game that forgive us of our sins, which is totally true. But as you know, that's not the very first presentation of the Gospel and Paul's letters. Some and I don't even think it is that in the Gospels, I think if Mark was the first gospel written, the very first statement that Jesus makes about his salvation was he came not to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many. So it wasn't forgiveness as much as a release some. And so as I continue to grow and understanding of the gospel, it moved from this idea of just being forgiven. And we had this idea. I mean very popular bumper sticker. I'm a lot older than you are. But back in the eighties, 1980 something, the bumper stickers came out. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven, and I do agree that Christians aren't perfect, but we're still more than just forgiven, and we are forgiven in Christ I don't want to downplay that. The forgiveness, that is, Ah, one of the major metaphors that we have a Ford, But but that's this. I don't think that's a primary point. And so I became a believer. I, uh, asked God to forgive me my sins when I was around eight years old and I got baptized. But I didn't understand that, Lordship Salvation that Christ it and just want Oh, forgive me, my sin. But he also want to be Lord of my life. And so when I was 16 going on 17 my wife, she was my girlfriend. Back in the day, if you remember, we were elementary school sweethearts when I'll be back there. First grade, stolen first kiss and six rate a romantic peck on the cheek, but 16 going on 17. She invited me to a revival, and the pastor preached on Matthew, Chapter seven. We're not everyone who says me, Lord, Lord willing and the king of Heaven, but only those who do the will of my father, and it was really my first time you ever hear The Lordship salvation aspect of what it meant to be a follower of Christ and I think that is a very valuable metaphor as well. Especially when we talk about what faith looks like. I'm a lot of the New Testament scholarship today is saying that faith is, of course not just mental ascent, but it's even more than trust them, especially when used with the word you on Gilly on faith. It's probably best if I does allegiance. And so Matthew Bates and needs a Gupta both have kind of worked on. We keep using that word, but it doesn't mean what we think it means. And so thank you for

spk_0:   11:54
those who don't speak. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Read Greek. Rather you and

spk_1:   12:00
your us. Yes, it's your right, Right? Yes. Get word evangelical from it. Yeah. Yes. Oh, sorry. Sorry about that. Yeah, thanks for just verifying that. But yes. Oh, usually that it was way. See the word young jelly on the word gospel and the Old Testament special like an idea. But in a Greco Roman contact, you and Gillian was connected with the gusta. So when a guy Octavian Augustus Caesar becomes the rule of the good news about him spread throughout the empire Une eagle flies down to anoint him to show a god's favor upon him. And so a lot of the propaganda in Roman in the Roman world was this Yuan Galeano. And to say that Jesus, to say that Caesar is Lord, uh And you have Jesus is Lord, that seems to push back either anti imperial or super imperial pushback at what was going on in Rome. But anyway, so, uh so in for many years, that was really I moved from just got being the one who forgives me of my sin to God is the one who wants to be Lord of my life and take up my cross and follow him and so on and so forth. But as I continue to study Paul and really put Paul back in his second Temple Judaism context, looking at Paul not in light of the Reformation, not in light of the modern Enlightenment, but looking at Paul as a Jew begin, understand palm or as a an apocalyptic figures on that s o for Paul is not that there was a problem, that we're all centers and we need a solution. But for Paul, there was a solution that he is not ashamed of the gospel, and there's his gospel of Jesus Christ and Seeing Jesus Christ. That's what actually leads to our problem. And so for Paul in the Apocalyptic and John feel free to push back and ask questions really, really,

spk_0:   13:48
like, just just define because some of our listeners may not be familiar, they may hear apocalyptic and think, Oh, the world is gonna end on a certain date. So just like in a quick breath, like, How would you define apocalyptic in this sense

spk_1:   14:00
of the word, Apocalypse is quite debated on what? That elevator speech? Yeah, so for apocalyptic is that the main thing is that crisis broken into this new world. He has started thean time, so it's welcome to the new agent, so the New Age doesn't begin at tribulation or rapture. But the New Age began when Jesus Christ came and even says the beginning of market if I cast out demons by the Finger of God than the Kingdom of God is at hand. And so Jesus Christ came to overturn Thio, but it may be helped to put it in con contacts with the Reformation. So in the Reformation view of Paul, if you will. The focus is that we are culprits and we have broken God's loans of what we need is to be forgiven of our sins with the justification which again is very true. But for the apocalyptic Scott, they would say that you have. Paul does speaking that language. But really the heart of Paul. What that is at his core is that not the little bitty sin. But Christ came to rescue us from the power of sin and death. And so it's not the little sand and little death, but Big Stan and Big Death. And so, uh, Krista's Victor picture of Atonement comes in with apocalyptic where Christ came to destroy the cosmological powers. And again we see this in Colossians if you remember what Christ does. But the church's sticks into the face of the ah, the cosmological powers and says boo yah are na na na na na na na Hey, about so there's a smack talking it. So it's not just that Christ came to take us who are culprits and give us forgiveness and reconciliation. But Christ also came and maybe predominately came to look at us as victims. How we've been in bondage to this present evil world. And Christ came to defeat those powers to defeat the power of death and the one who holds the power of death. Remember, Hebrews and Thio set us free from that. And so I mentioned earlier that that Galatians the very, probably very first letter that Paul wrote second toe, maybe first Thessalonians. But if you remember in Galatians Chapter one, Verse three, it says that Jesus Christ he gave himself for our sins and then he gives us the reason for that. It's not for forgiveness, but again, forgiveness is there. It's not just something to be Lord of Life, which again is very important. But it gave himself for our sins in order to rescue us from this present evil age. If you continue to read through Go Galatians, you realize that that's that's still a k a. The cosmological powers. And so Paul's very first statement about the Gospel. It's not forgiveness, not just Lordship, but it is to be set free from that and so being stepped even. That is not just forgiveness, but it's also being moved from the sphere of darkness, the sphere of flesh, the sphere of sin the sphere of cosmological powers that that's where we once were. But once we put our trust in describes pledge allegiance Jesus Christ because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ that moves us from the sphere of send death, flash, flash, flash and evil to the sphere of being in Christ. And so, with the apocalyptic people, the focus isn't to forgive us of our sins, but instead that we become one man in Jesus Christ to tear down those walls of racism and so on and so forth. That's what he's happy. Yeah, grand.

spk_0:   17:33
Yeah, let me just hit pause on that because I think you're doing a really good job of showing us so far. And if you're listening to this, you're probably thinking, Oh my gosh, there's so much imagery here and I think that's the point is for for most of us, I think we kind of gravitate towards the imagery in the Bible that either makes sense to us or that we've heard most growing up. Or that we're just most passionate about. And so, like you shared like a lot of your upbringing. You heard a lot about sin, and you began the starting place for your identity was ur center. You need to be saved. But then you started to discover that, actually, there's also being rescued from this realm of darkness. And so there's like a supernatural realm and there's a rescue and there's all of this, Lordship. And so I think it's really helpful what you're doing, Joey, because it's helping us see. Wow, this isn't an easy, like, cut and dry sort of thing to say. There's only one way to look at, um one. Our identity. But to the way God sees us, when it comes to the New Testament, there's many different metaphors. This is that correct?

spk_1:   18:36
Yes, that's that's very correct. And again, all all of them are true. All of them are very exact Amar biblical. But I'm trying to give you, in a sense, my journey of where these metaphors and how I grew up in the Lord leads to come back to your question of identity. And so, for Paul, being in Christ is our identity, and when he says going back to Colossians three, that Christ is our life, and then when he has revealed our life will be rebuild as well And so our ultimate identity is not that I'm a sinner who put my when I was eight years old. I said the prayer of the sinner's prayer and I became a believer because I was a center. That's not the primary point. I don't think for Paul, it's not them. When I was 16 going on 17 that I ask Christ to be lord of my life. In both of those, the first step is an therapist centric. It's me. And so if you'd asked me Joey, when were you were saved back then I would say, uh, you know, when I was eight years old, but in the apocalyptic, more most defense, that mate made maybe unhelpful to keep using that word. But them in that motif you ve asked me when I was saved, I would say about 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ died on the cross. You know that that's the point, cause that's when state and was destroyed. That's what that's what destroyed. And so you could ask Joey, how are you safe? And I could say from more of a reformation from you know, eight year old Joey would say, Well, I was saved by putting my faith in Jesus Christ, but in the apocalyptic putting Paul in his Jewish context again. While that is true, the first step is that I was saying not by my faith in Jesus Christ, but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ Them that Greek word pissed us that when we talk about faith in Christ of the faith of Christ Justice, the word faith can also mean faithfulness. And so, for a more apocalyptic strand, uh, the emphasis, the stress, what's gonna be underscored is not what humans do, but instead what Christ has done for us. And so I think sometimes our discussion in the Christian faith about identity actually goes back to what we focus. Which metaphor we hold on to with respect, the salvation.

spk_0:   20:47
Yeah, and I and I feel like the thing that I that I often discussed with people, especially in university, was this whole idea of Am I a saint or am I a center or am I both? Yeah. Um, what would you say to

spk_1:   21:01
that Right again? Uh, I would say, First of all, we ask question who is Christ and who is Christ in her life? what he came to do. And so that we said all of that to get to the different starting points. Yeah, exactly. And so understanding those different metaphors. So Christ didn't come just to forgive us of our sins. He came to give us power over them. Does that make sense? And so there is a There is a both end and we could say already not get to bring in that escape theological attention. But I But I prefer more of already not fully so. I'm already holy. I'm already sanctified in Jesus Christ, but I'm just not fully there In contrast to the way I grew up was kind of like Yeah, yeah, I'm already holy, but not yet and often not get meant. Not really. And so I think sometimes once we focus on ourselves and whether we're saying to whether we're center rather than fixing our eyes on Jesus Christ, Yes, we were just we're asking. We're looking for a new answer to a question that Paul is not that's really asking.

spk_0:   22:08
So for you personally, as as you've gone on this journey from it being Maur anthro, post centric, more focused on your human condition into understanding what Jesus did 2000 some odd years ago. How did that How has that transformed you personally? How have you seen your own maybe devotional life in your own heart grow towards God in that journey?

spk_1:   22:33
Yeah. So I've moved from a moralistic perspective to a more contemplative are Christian mystic. And but because there's so much baggage that's related to that, um even hesitate to say that. But again, I think as long as we're focusing on, can I overcome this in rather than crisis? Overcome this? Then then, uh, it's almost Peter taking his eyes off a Christ, looking at the waves rather than keeping his eyes on the solution. Yeah. And so for me, I understand now that the only way that I can become who I am in Christ, who I already am in crisis First of all, it has to be the grace of God. And so there's no holiness. There's nothing that's accomplished in my life with outside of God's grace. I like what Paul says in first Corinthians 15 10. You know, I met Troma is the Greek word that he uses some I've normally born stillborn. Yeah, formed is this butts and this big. But they're, uh, by the grace of God. I am what I am and and then that's fantastic. And so Paul says who I am now is not about who I waas. It's not even about who I am. It's about God's grace. And then he doesn't stop there. But he says, By the grace of God, I am what I am. And His Grace to me is not without effect. And so the grace of God is efficacious thumb. He doesn't give us a grace just to forgive us of our sin. But he gives us that grace to overcome our sin and course. Then he kind of does little humble brag, you know, because there's gotta regard harder than all these other possibles. Not me, but for the grace of God that was with me. And so, Paul, he's almost like the chubby kid. When you played Chase back in elementary school that I stood by base, you know you can never get him to come to that. Did you remember that kid? Yeah. Yeah. Ultimate Really.

spk_0:   24:26
The cherry picker. The guy who stands?

spk_1:   24:27
Yeah, that's right. And so, for Paul, that's the grace of God. And so we have to understand that our focus hallways has to be on the grace of God because if not, then we can achieve of self righteousness like some of the non believing juices. Paul talks about Roman's nine and 10 and so, without the grace of God being that which is just constrains us that everywhere return. And so again, if I'm focusing on my life rather than the grace of God, it's easy to achieve kind of a self righteousness, our pride time type issues. Ah, and I think that go ahead.

spk_0:   25:01
No, I was just Go ahead, finish. I have another thought, but I want to let you go.

spk_1:   25:05
Yeah, so I think living life to the more begins by living a life that is before the grace of God. And secondly, that is in Christ. And so our identity is that now we are have been clothing. Christ, he is our life. And we may have been made into that one little person. And so a little, um the after you it's Tom. It is. But it says that the Lord gives perfect piece to the mine who rests upon him and So I think the more of we let our hearts and our minds arrest on who Jesus Christ is, then that that helps us overcome our sin. Because when I was, uh, I have five Children, as you mentioned and I think it was Kenobi, my firstborn son. Back when we lived in Scotland, we were walking through the 10 Commandments, and I have no other Lord have no other gods before me and we were talking about. It was like, You know, I think that the reason God, uh, says that it's because God is so big that when he's in your life, there's no room for anything else. Mmm. And it is like coming like a five year old man. But I think that said, I think once we realized how long and how wide now deep in how high is the love of Jesus Christ, there's no more room for those other things. And so being in Christ and finds an identity in him on. So it leads to a more contemplative understanding of just continue to allow our hope in our hearts to rest in Christ. And that's where we find that piece. And I could go on. But you have any other questions?

spk_0:   26:37
Yeah. No, no, no. I think with that the two operative words Grace and rest. Um, e think especially when you think about this sense of, um, you know, I need to prove how worthy I am by, you know, launching a new business or by getting a new girlfriend or by achieving the C suite status like I have to prove, Ah, lot of the especially in the American culture, is about proving your value, improving your words and showing people that I am worth it and so that you kind of in control of that. Maybe because you've been wounded before, maybe because you have something to prove because you weren't able to do that before. Whatever the reason, it kind of puts you in the driver's seat. And then what you're saying, Here's listen. The starting point has to be the creator of the universe. And when you start with him, you come into this kind of alignment that allows you to then tow, have rest and allows the grace of God toe work in you. Is that that's kind of just my processing. Do you feel like that's an accurate portrayal of what you're getting at.

spk_1:   27:42
Yeah, because the great restatement.

spk_0:   27:44
Okay? Yeah. Yeah, because I think it's really helpful what you're getting at because, um, so much of the pressure I think we all feel is to is to show people to prove to people how how important we are based on you know, how many likes we have on instagram. How many followers we have or whatever, and yet gods, gods hard for us is that we would rest in the identity that he speaks over us. Unless that work its way through our lives. And there's so much power that comes from that Because it's not just about what we can control, which in this day and age, and I'm interviewing you right now during the covert 19 crisis, we're realizing how little control we have, general. Right? Yeah. So with with this, the starting point being who got is and how powerful and huge God is that he takes up this space and crisis our life. Um, how how are we compelled to see ourselves? Um, s O, This is the starting point. But then how are we compelled to see ourselves as these as these creatures who were created by God, Do we? Do we see ourselves as less than Dewey? How then do we find value? Because I think someone could. And I think people do come into Christianity and they think, OK, well, I guess this means that I have to kind of lose all of my desires, lose all of my sort of worth and value in order to just be completely assumed by God or consumed by God. So what would you say to that?

spk_1:   29:16
Well, I would quote C. S. Lewis CS Lewis. He had this fear and he talks about it that we just gonna lose our personality and our self identity. But Luis comes and says, No, no, no. It's just the opposite. The crisis that which once he gives us his spirit, we have more identity than we would ever have before. We have more personality than we would ever have before. And so that's kind of the paradox of it. Our life, our identity, outside of crisis, not our real identity, are true personal. They are true. Value is only found in the one who has made us. And so there's irony that comes in. And you know, I mentioned the grace of God and being in Christ, but also just by the power of his spirit. It's It's the spirit of Christ, the spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, that, yeah, it helps us come alive. And so it's interesting. Ah, I was a youth pastor for over a decade, if you remember, and one of my favorite illustrations for the Holy Spirit was they used chocolate milk. Um, today I would use almond milk, of course, but you lived with the Hershey's chocolate in in the milk, and, uh, it was nothing. It was just It would just go down to the bottom. It wouldn't make chocolate milk, but we did get a spoon and you'd stir up that Hershey's chocolate. Then all of a sudden, you know, the milk takes better, the chocolate begins to infused. And so I think that's like that with the Holy Spirit as well. And so we think that our identity is just playing white milk with the spirit of God down at the base. But what happens when we become in Christ? What happens when we walked by the power of his spirit is that that stirs up within us and our true identity. What that crisis called us to be, but the lawyers called us to be is that which makes our lives more tasty, if you will.

spk_0:   31:03
That's really good. I love it. You're so granola. I'm just laughing about your almond milk. Colorado, Colorado, that's really good, Joey. Um, OK. And so with all of that said and the fact that the Holy Spirit his power creates in us this potential to flourish is human beings. Um, there still certain passages? And you and I have talked about this that that Christians often used to say, OK, great, that's the direction. But as a Christian living your day to day life, it's just gonna be a grind. It's just gonna be a struggle. And typically the passes that people run to for that is Roman seven. And if I could read that really quickly, the starting in verse 15. I know I'm like jumping into the middle of it, but I often hear this for I do not understand my own actions, but I do not, for I do not do what I want. But I do the very thing I hate now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law. That is good. So now it is no longer I who do it but the sin that dwells within me for I know that nothing good dwells in me that is in my flesh for I have the desire to do what is right but not the ability to carry it out. And I could keep reading. But Roman seven. Joey Man Pastorally This is the go to passage for when people talk about the daily life with Christ, I hear this passage quoted more often than not. So can we jump into this for a minute? How do you How do you understand the context of Romans seven And then maybe you could take us into your understanding of this passage?

spk_1:   32:43
Sure. Let's see. Where do I want to begin? Let's Ah, let me ask you a few mountain. I I can go autobiographical. I can go History of interpretation. I can go do that in a moment. 6 to 8. Go ahead.

spk_0:   33:01
Why don't you start with the context of 6 to 8 and maybe give us a couple of ways that this passage is sometimes seen. And then I'll ask you like your own autobiographical. Okay, we start with the contact.

spk_1:   33:12
Yeah, let me say this to begin before going In this context, the growing consensus, if not the consensus of New Testament scholars, is that Roman seven is not Paul talking about the Christian daily struggle with sin. So that would be the first free qualification that I would say. The second pre qualification is that I do believe that Christian struggle with sin that and the more you overcome send, the more you struggle with the temptation. Many of us we don't even know the power of temptation because we give in to it so quickly on. So we do see going back to Galatians Chapter five, that the spirit goes against the flash and the flash's goes against the spirit. And because of that, we don't do the fleshly desires that we have because there is that struggle. We could go to Peter Peter and talk about them as aliens and strangers, uh, abstained from the sinful desires which wage war. And so those are Those are kind of two pre qualifications. Before I jump into Roman's sixth and look at Roman seven and line of those two chapters. Yeah, it's a good Yeah, man. Come on. Okay, So Romans, six of you remember Paul asked this question. I mean, something that Paul does in Romans. That he doesn't do elsewhere is he uses what we call diatribe. You'll asking questions. I'll answer that question. And it may be that this diatribe is just an imaginary opponent who's asking this question. That could be Paul before he was a believer. Uh, but anyway, there's a question that he asked him, Shall we continue to stand in order that grace may abound That he had just said that we're sin abounds, Grace Super abound. Summit here, I come to say, but it overcomes and so fall last night questions. So she should continue. I could go ahead and send it since then because I know God's going to forgive me. I know that God's grace is going to be there. And Paul says, of course, hectored and on out to the Nano. No, Megan Oita. One of the strongest way to say Ah, heck no. Our Kell. No, in ah, Greek. We've died the sand. How can we live in any longer. And so he maps out this idea that Jesus Christ died this in once and for all. We died with Christ through baptism. That's when we became in Christ, if you remember, and so the so what much of this is now we're dead. This in. How can we live in it any longer? Sin is no longer our Masterson is not the boss of me this type of idea that he continues to unpack. And so he says very clearly, very passionately, that because we've been set free from sin, there's no longer offer our bodies as instruments to send. That's who we used to be. But we have died and we've been raised with Christ and therefore he ends with Roman 6 23 for the wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. And we often take this as at least in my tradition, as averse to when the lost Roman 6 23 But here, Paul is talking to the believer the way just in his death. But that's not who you are anymore. Instead, you're, uh you're focusing on the gift of God that that's ah eternal life in the word gift. And grace actually is the same word on. And so we see that with Paul Grayson again, as we saw it saw Roman six and previously Romans five graces. And not just this free gift with no strings attached them Greece. Is this some power that's inside of us? Them to help us overcome our sin.

spk_0:   36:39
And so, Joey Yeah. Explain real quick. Just you've already said spoke. Spoken to this. But there's some identity language you were once this you are now this correct?

spk_1:   36:48
Yeah, that's right. Exactly. And so Ah, lot of scholars believe that really Romans five through eight is where Paul unleashes his apocalyptic of you. And so Romans one through four when he's talking about justification by faith, he only talked about that because, uh, this Jewish interlocutor, this diatribe that he's having, Uh and so we see an accident. Paul rarely talks about justification. A reconciliation in the sermon, Some He only talks about that when it's kind of an interview. Old discussion. And so again, While it's a true metaphor that we've been forgiven and justified over against the law which bound us for many of the apocalyptic New Testament. Scott Pauline scholars. They say that Paul only deals with the reference of the law when that Sorry that that metaphor when the law is involved. But what he really likes talk about is our identity in Christ. And so we see that even Romans 51 that therefore having been justified by Christ Now, now we stand in this access. So yes, the Romans five and six, and then he gets the Roman seven and we want to make sure that we put all of Scripture in context. We want ice a Jesus. I mean, we want excuses, not icy Jesus. And so what happens often is that we come to attacks and we take it out of context, which becomes a pretext for proof text. And so we want to understand context, context, context and not make a verse mean what it never mends. And so Roman, 71 Paul hasn't aside an excursion. He says I'm a now. I'm speaking to those of you who know the law. And so one thing that we see in Romans is that Paul continues to go back talking Thio Jewish Congregation of believers and a Roman. It's Greco Roman. But a group of believers will get this in Romans 9 11 of course, as well. But now he's focusing on those who know the law, which is probably gonna be predominately juice. And he has his great question. Well, if the law is the law in, according Roman's five is that it sleeps, it slips in the back door in order to increase trespasses. And so Paul has to deal with this issue of the Odyssey. If the law wasn't meant to bring salvation, then why did God give the law in the first place? And is the lost in Is the law death? And so really Roman seven is not about the Christian life, but it's a question of this huge theological question. Salvation. History, question. Why did God give the law in the first place? And so if you look at the context of Roman seven, it's about them. The law and we follow the diatribe, and it's really the exoneration of the law. It's kind of letting the giving apology for the law and God's work in savage in history to give the Torah. Yeah, questions helmets points of Yeah,

spk_0:   39:34
yeah, yeah, man. So So with this, do you think? Do you think the reason why it's so easy to read Roman? Seven? So it was a Western American growing up. It was easy for me to read Roman seven and read the the especially starting in around, I think verse 13. It is easy for me to read the eyes, the first person singular there. I do not understand my own actions. I do not know no what I want to do, etcetera. Do you think it's easy for us to do that? Because one, we are so individualistic and it's easy to kind of read ourselves into the text and then two, because, man, I had no idea about, you know, interlock a tour or die trying things like that, you know? I mean, I was just starting out. So do you think that's part of the reason why it's so easily misunderstood this passage?

spk_1:   40:20
It iss Yeah, and one thing that we haven't been taught very well growing up at least, But I we've being my contacts is really how to do Herman. It excited how to understand averse within its context, you know, we would go to just we take terrific versus out rather than looking at them within their entire context. And so I think basic Bible interpretation helps you begin to see the train of thoughts on that. That Paul, it falls very good. It was not like him. So much is that he's really good at making arguments and being rational and following this logical argument, but and again, this is putting Paul back into his original contact. So what seems odd and strange to us was very common for them. And so, in the 1st 400 years of the interpretation, Roman seven, no one takes this eye as Paul referring to himself as a postcode post Christian.

spk_0:   41:18
Okay, where does it first start to arrive?

spk_1:   41:21
Well, the very first person that we have What do you mean, continue give, like the condo? Yeah,

spk_0:   41:26
go ahead. So I'm just getting that much of my curiosity. Go ahead.

spk_1:   41:30
I'm excited too. Yeah, but so So Paul again talks about identity, uses this reference of the law that a woman, as long as she's married to a man than she, uh, she she's bound to him. And if she were to commit adultery, then she would be calling adulterous. But if the man were to die, then she would be free to marry another person. Paul's not talking about marriage here. Paul is using a metaphor. So then he's going to come and say, But guess what? We had died. Therefore, we're no longer bound to the law. We're no longer bounded on old man. But now we've been set free. So we belong to Christ. And so we get the verse five and six. Which again, if I talk about appalling out a great argument here, he gives really the table of contents of the rest of seven in Chapter eight. Them. So the command, the law, it leads to sin and death. But life in Christ. But but the spirit leads the life in Christ Jesus. And so, if you if your readers, your audience has Roman seven. If taken scroll to that, they can look at Verse five, seems to unpack. What's gonna happen in Roman seven and then Burst six is going to get us to that. Therefore, there's now no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus, which is unpacking Romans eight. Does that make sense?

spk_0:   42:47
Yeah, So he's showing us his hand. He's telling us where he's about to go.

spk_1:   42:51
That's right. A great communicator. Great. And so then he asked his rhetorical question. Is the law sin? And just like what we saw in Roman 61 where he says, Shall I continue? And sins of the grace may abound. He says, Heck, did it? No, no, no, no, no, no. Here in Roman, 76 as well, he says, No, I'm not at all on the law is not sin. And so poet said some really nasty things about the law, not just here in Romans, but even in first Corinthians 15. Hey talks about how the law and sand are kind of in cahoots with one another. And so he said some things that would lead one to ask. Well, is the loss in? And so Paul has to defend the law and he says, No, not at all. You know, I wouldn't know what sin Waas if it wasn't for the law. Have you read tokens? Progress, John? Yes. Do you remember the scene where, um, profit takes Christian to this old log cabin and they're looking into the the window of this house and Austin this person comes and has a broom and they begin to sweep and the dust, just like comes all the way up and they see the dust and, uh, but the dust settles right back down. And so then the person goes out and comes back with a wash bucket. And so Christians like what in the world is talking about? And the prophet says, Well, actually, the first time he comes in with the broom, that's the law, and the law stirs up so that you can see that there's just there, but it doesn't have the power to get rid of the dust. But the bucket, the wash bucket is that which actually has the power to reveal it. And so I think John Bunny does a great job of capturing kind of a Pauline, understanding what the law was for. So the law was at which to remind us what Senator Paul used the illustration. I don't know what Sin Waas had a nuts. I don't know what coveting was had, not the command, the law said. Thou shalt not covet. And so here Paul is giving an explanation of the law again. Notice he's not talking on a believer here. He's talking just about the subject is about the law, and then he uses this. Ah, this illustration. I was alive before the law came, but when the law came, Sin sees an opportunity. I've used it as a base of operations, and it attacked me and deceived me and I died. Now, for many of us again, we think Paul is talking about himself causes using that the Greek word ago the eye. But from the very first person that we have who talks about some this passage in the second century is Ah, church father called origin An origin took this as an impersonation process. Papaya is the fancy word for it that was part of the elementary school education and so one way that they would learn to rights and to give speeches that they would let their elementary students learn. These quote would be like be letting my son cast me and learn Martin Luther King Jr speech and using the eye for himself on, because that way he learns vocabulary that where he learns great grammar, that we learned how to speak. So this was part of the pro gymnasium, and so origin comes and says, What's obviously that Paul is using an impersonation because we know that Paul was not alive before the law came. There's only one person who was alive before the law came. And that was Adam and Eve. And, uh, again you may say, Wow, that's kind of a stretch to bring Adam And even to this, but not if you look at it within context because Romans 5 12 through 21 he's been talking about Adam. Ah, lot of scholars see Adam even going back to Romans, Chapter one, that there's just in enrollment. Say he's gonna talk about Adam with respect to creation, being subjected to futility against her will. And so there's an undercurrent of a narrative underneath Paul's pros, and there's a lot of this academic imagery. But if you remember when the command came, do not eat from the tree. That's when it's the serpent deceived Adam and even even even it said, um he deceived me and I died. And so this sounds a lot like Genesis, Chapter three. It may be similar to me saying to you, John, I like your shoes doesn't like comfortable shoes. I remember my first pair of shoes. My mom said they were magic shoes. Mamma said they'd take me anywhere you know. So there I am, using my and I. But there's there's there's references here. There's illusions here that would make you think that I'm talking about not Joey Dotson, but forced Forest Gump s. So this type of ended imagery where he's talking about them. I was alive for the law, came the law. It sees you as the sin. Seize the opportunity, the law and deceive me. And that's when I died. And so really, the question is not about Christian living here, but instead it's about the relationship between the law, sin and death.

spk_0:   47:45
Okay, Yeah, that's great. We're tracking with you. So okay, he's weaving in law and the place of the law within Salvation history as it relates to Adam and Eve Potentially. All right, so

spk_1:   47:59
that's where you're going. And, uh, and again, this was the big most. The most common interpretation among the early church fathers is that Paul is using impersonation. Some say he's Impersonating Adam, some saying that he's Impersonating Israel because we see that he actually uses the 10 Commandments and one thing that we see once again putting Paul back in his Jewish context is that this is not either or Adam and Israel were considered the second thing. So Israel was considered in a sense of second Adam. Jesus Christ comes as 1/3 Israel or, you know, the true Israel. And so it may be somewhat some pedantic to try to separate Adam. In Israel, it's Adam and Israel. Israel goes into the wilderness. They fell like Adam fails. And so again, this is not finished. Romans context. But put in the context of just the Old Testament as a whole. How Israel is the one who's cast from the Garden.

spk_0:   48:52
I think one thing that you're doing a really good job of showing us is that it's Ah, there's a lot going on here. It's a little presumptive to think that this is about just little old me, you know? I mean, it's not supposed to be, Ah that I can't see where I fit in to salvation history or none of what Paul writes about relates to me. But it's also not saying that I should read Roman seven and say, OK, where do I fit in here Because man Paul is invoking a lot of imagery here is I think you're doing a good job of helping us see. Okay, Yeah. Maybe I shouldn't just read myself into the text here with Roman seven. I need to take a different lens on this.

spk_1:   49:32
Yeah, And you know, my ultimate argument is that because it's so controversy. Okay, there still are some, uh, some fantastic scholars that we're going to argue that this is, uh, Paula talking about himself, even though they are the minority report in scholarship. But since it is controversial, I would just say that this shouldn't be at the center of our discussion. It shouldn't be our go to and we talk about the Christian discussion, it should be at the if you don't take it off the table and just look at those passages that are very clear about the relationship of Christians with sin. It's if it's not at the edge of the table. If we get taken off that they were at least move it to the edge and focus of those passages that are non controversial that that Paul is dealing with. And so from there he goes to the passage that you just read and the question is, was a send meant it was the law meant to produce death inside of me. And what's again, Paul says, No, no, no. But the problem is, that is, the law is weak, it doesn't have the power. And so sin begins the word death. Now one thing that you see in Roman seven is, uh, it's all about since since since since in death that that that death less, less, less, less less. There's no mention of Christ, Christ, Christ, Christ, Christ. There's no mention of spirits of your spirit, spirit, spirit. There's no mention of life, life, life, life, life. And so what we see is that whoever this person is, that they're not calling for the power of the spirit inside of them. And we go to one of those clear passages Galatians 5 16 So I say, walk by the power of the spirit and you will not ever fulfill the desires of your sinful nature or going on anyone who's, uh, who's led by the spirit has crucified the flesh along with his passions and desires. And so, uh, yeah, sorry. But whoever this person is they're not walking by the power of the spirit. At least there's no mention of that. Instead, it's a struggle of what happens when the sun comes in and order produced law inside of you. This seems to, uh, to me it sounds like it contradicts some. Some might say, Well, there's a tension here, but what he it seems if you read Roman six and read room and seven together, this person doesn't come and say I struggle with sin. This person comes in, says I have been dominated by sin. I'm a slave to send his versus doesn't come and say, You know, there's nothing. Uh, it doesn't come to say that crisis the spirit is in my life and crisis in a life because there's nothing good in my life that is inside of my flesh. And so it's

spk_0:   52:00
a really good observation because the way that this is most often applied is man. I'm struggling. You know, I do the thing that I do not want to do, you know, and it's kind of like the way we pulled this text out, and we apply it whenever there is a struggle with sin and it's not that that struggle is not really and like you said before, like you don't really know temptation until you start to struggle against Sin and Paul elsewhere encourages us. Tow to fight the good fight and to not, um, give in to the desires of the flesh. But here it's not even describing that it's talking about complete enslavement. Which leads us to believe this. This may not be talking about the normative Christian struggle with sin.

spk_1:   52:45
Yeah, and I don't think it's talking about the Christian struggle with Senator. I don't think this is even talking about a Christian. This is, uh, Adam Israel or a nun believing Jew who is trying to achieve life through the law. Um, and that leads to that frustration. And so it could be that the person who's asking these questions is Paul before he was a believer, You know, now being on this side of Damascus Road, if you will, he looks back and sees that struggle inside of him. But there's nowhere else that Paul is gonna talk about this struggle for himself or for believers. Now I do believe that the closer we get to Christ, the more we smell that intercepts pool inside of our life, you know? So we were, um or, er we're more attempted to our own depravity of the closer we get to the Lord. But again, this is just not the context. And so we're reading the struggle of a Christian into this, and it's it's just bad. Bad excuses.

spk_0:   53:43
Yeah, okay. And so is there anything else that you would say to kind of help us wrap up seven to help us understand? Seven?

spk_1:   53:51
Yeah. Maybe two other points. S o those who argue that Paul has to be talking about himself in this passage, they go to the end of chapter seven, Verse 25 where you have but, oh, what a wretch I am who rescue me from this body of sin. And then Paul says, But But thanks be to God, and so he gives us praise and they would say, Well, you know, well, Paul would never say this here. He actually brings in the gospel. But again, the majority of new system scholars, but and early church fathers take this as an interjection. Paul can't handle it anymore. And so Origin says he had his mask on He has to come out on the mask and say, Hey, it's not hopeless. Kiki, hold, Wait, wait. We're about to get the chapter eight. I mean, so again, how you take that versus one of the keys on how you take the identity of the eye and Roman seven. Um And, uh So maybe one of the point is a problem that we have is that we take Roman 7 15 through 25 out of context of Roman 71 through five. Sorry, one through nine. But we also take it out of context in Roman six. But we also take it out of context from its eight. Because remember, Romans 81 Roman seven doesn't stop it, Roman seven. It continues to go in. The Romans ate there. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those of us in Christ, Jesus. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ, Jesus has set blank free from the law of sin. Is death inserted pronoun there? How do you How do you have this memorized for the loss of life of Christ? Okay. Said U S 01 of our Greek eso get this is gonna get interesting. Greek weeds are a little bit, but, uh, if you remember, uh, that usually when Paul uses you, he uses the plural. You the great coming from Texas. The y'all has said you offering. But that's not what Paul says in the Greek. It is sad which a second person singular has set you free. And so he goes from us to you. And so, if so, interest. If the original manuscript is sad, the second person singular, then here Paul actually speaks back to the person in Roman seven and says, Hey, that too. You used to be. But now you've been set free from the law of Senate death. You're no Lord no longer obligated to fulfill the desires of the sinful nature. You never. You no longer want Kata Sarka according to the flesh. But now you walk according to the spirit. But there's life and there's freedom. And so one of our textual variance, one of the some of our oldest manuscripts have the sad, the second person singular the others have have set. Matt free has set me free from the law of Senate death. And so those are two predominant readings of its And if it's me, then it could be Paul talking about himself in Roman seven before got knocked him off his donkey under the master's road. But in both of these cases, none of this has not set us free. But it's either Paul speaking back to that person. That's the promise that he has freedom here. She s freedom or talking about his own life on how now he's been set free. And so we all walk according to the power of the spirit. Now those of us who are in Christ

spk_0:   57:09
and just to bring that full circle for people who may have missed that so often in Paul's letters, the U the wire, you the what we sometimes readers as the second person singular is often chloral because he's riding to a whole church. And, uh, I have never caught the fact here in Romans eight to that the given the reading that we have, if the manuscript, like you said, are the ones that we take is as authentic and true is first person. I'm sorry, a second person singular. It's not you all are y'all? It's you instead really even that once again, it's such A. It's an insightful comment, even if you don't fully understand it, because it just shows you okay, Yeah, maybe there's a lot more here that I'm not saying, Um and so I think that's really helpful, Joey, because it then it says, Well, look, maybe he Maybe he's talking back in Roman seven, about this person who's been speaking about and so so Joey with with all of this. And so you've kind of opened our eyes to seem Oh my goodness, there's a lot here that Paul could be speaking to. How do you now, like, how would you passed orally? Do you ever pastorally apply this passage? Or how would you encourage someone who's not a Bible scholar who's maybe lives a very busy life and still wants to read Romans? How would you encourage them to to take this and see the implications? Maybe not an application, but an implication of this passage. There are only six through eight really

spk_1:   58:46
good. You know, this this passage It's been a source of encouragement for so many believers who they read their own struggle into this and again. I want to validate that we struggle with sin, but I think that one thing that putting it back in the context of not just Paul but Jesus and Peter and James is that because we make Roman seven our starting point for the Christian life. If you think that you're gonna be defeated by sin every day, then you're gonna be defeated by stand every day. The fact that I send daily If I if I had this idea that Oh, yeah, well, I'm gonna be defeated then. I've already lost the battle, whereas what we see in the New Testament is that sin is definitely there. But it's not the rule. Sin is the exception to the rule, not the rule. And so Roman seven shouldn't be the rule of the Christian life. It is if it is even the Christian life, which I don't think in this case it should be the exception. So we were seeing in John the beloved disciple, he says, I write this to you. Why? So that you will not sin. So that's a role. That's the goal is that you will not send. And again, this is not self righteous. This is not be pulling myself up by my bootstraps to use another Texas idiom. But this is, uh, me walking by the power of God and John. Are you going to say that you know those who have been born of God, those who have are Children of God they don't continue to send. But if you do sin, if that exception, then guess what we got. God is just a staple in Justin. You will purify us from our sins. And so just reminding the believers that Yassin is that temptation in trouble. It's always gonna be there. But the truth is, is that we have power over sin. And so it's interesting. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us and my context. Um, except for overcome sin. We have ways of applying that told everything's and Christ didn't come and we received Were Paul saying that Christ became sin so that we might become the righteousness of God. And so I think the point when Jesus looks at the woman who had been caught in adultery and says, Go and sin no more, we kind of stopped before, even says that Does he say, goes into more. But I'm just getting You're really gonna be defeated by Sin Daily. You're nothing but a Reg is nothing good. You you don't have that expectation. Instead, the expectation is that now who they who we are in Christ and it gives us power to finally say no s so we could go even the tightest to it. So what I'll probably do pastorally is move them to the passages that are clear and so entitles to It says that the grace of God has shown up to teach us to say heck, no to sin and sinful desires And ah, yeah, to power and self control. And so one thing that the Christians in the early churches this was their great arguments. So especially to like the philosophers, the moral philosophers who were trying to overcome their sinful passions, The Christians would come and say, Look at our lives. I mean, we're not dominated by sin. They imitate us is we imitate Christ. And so, uh, yes. Oh, there Holy life. Their standard of living lives of Holiness is that which gave them a megaphone to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. And today we don't lead out with a look at our lives. We looked we lead out with Christians aren't perfect. Just forgiven,

spk_0:   1:2:18
right? Right? Yeah, right, Yeah. And then in policy, no crisis our life. And look at the fruit of the spirit that produces that's produced in one's life. And you have all this imagery of being raised to a new life. And so it's a it's a life that's lived, empowering and grace. Correct.

spk_1:   1:2:36
Yeah, totally. And

spk_0:   1:2:38
so the moment Kevin is Roman, seven more of like a like a history lesson for us to give thanks to Jesus for coming and helping provide a solution for which the law was was pointing to a problem. It would Roman 70 more of just like a salvation history lesson. Or how would you? How would you put that into reference now?

spk_1:   1:3:00
Yeah, I think, emphasizing the salvation more than just the history part of it. So But, um, again, Paul wasn't writing Romans as a theological textbook. Instead, he's he is a pastor, writing it to a church that's ah, the group of churches in Rome. Some were Jewish and somewhere gentile, and so Paul is going to deal with it. So just like Romans 9 to 11 is not Paul's treaties on pretty for knowledge and predestination and said he's dealing with this issue of Jews and why they have rejected the gospel on the whole that I'm believing juice And how does that relate to the Gentiles? Roman seven's gonna be along those lines. Um, I do think that we can cross the principal izing bridge of you if you will. Any time we bring any type of law into our lives, uh, our focus begins toe focus on rules and legalism rather than walking in the spirit. And so there are some believers in some denominations that become so legalistic that they do achieve maybe a self righteousness. Are they always in that that that bondage of assumes, the focus is on the law than I've already been defeated? And so there's some we can extrapolate that, too, those who become legalistic, and in this and the regulations back into it, the thesis of relations that Christ came to set us free from our sinful desires on one hand and also legalism. On the other hand, I mean, so we have a tendency to if we're not the prodigal son to become the older brother, and Christ came to set us free from both of those,

spk_0:   1:4:35
right? And in that way, he's offering almost 1/3 way, Would you say?

spk_1:   1:4:40
Yeah, that's right the way.

spk_0:   1:4:43
Ride the way. Right now. Speak to that a little bit more, just to kind of help us, maybe. Ah, bring this all together. So, for Paul, as you have studied and wrestled with and worshipped through the scripture, that Paul Road what his pathway for followers of Jesus to come fully alive.

spk_1:   1:5:06
Yeah, well, again, I would go back to the grace of God, the blood of Jesus Christ. I'm being in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit that those are three prongs of the Trinity. And so the pathway is is a person. So it's the it's the person Jesus Christ is revealing us the father, uh, through the power of the Holy Spirit. And so the pathway is, uh the person views cries, is leading us. And so God doesn't give us a pathway. He gives us a guide, if you will. So come. And that's the person of Christ. Um, but one thing that's when you understand is that he hasn't called us to walk this pathway alone and This is sometimes why we struggle so much. I think it would be that they were defeated by sin is again This guy is II and Roman seven, and we get the Romans eight, and now it's wee wee, wee, wee wee on dso the path The Holiness can only be done in community. And so it's by the grace of God, It's, uh, in Christ. It's sorry, it said, it's before the grace of God. It's in Christ. It's by the spirit, but it's also with community. And so we see in Galatians six again, where Paul is talking about the Christian struggle was send that if anyone is caught in the trespass that those of you who are spiritual restore this person, do it. Ah, gently do it. Ah, not having your own pride and bearing one another's burdens. And so I think, since sometimes the reason that the things we want to do, we do not do and the things we don't want to do. That's what we find yourself doing is because we're struggling with this individually rather than walking and community. Paul says that, you know, crucify your flash along with his passions and desires there. It's not you singular. Crucify your flesh. It's y'all crucify your flash along with his passions and desires. And so I can't crucify my anger. John, without you, I need you in my life to push back at my pride. I need you. And I was talking to a seminary student yesterday that's struggling with the sin. And he was asking me, You know, how can I have more power over this? And I said, Well, you need to continue to let other people that you can trust. No, this is because as long as we're still struggling by ourselves in the darkness, it's gonna have power from its. But the more we share with other people, the more light it gives. And so in the first century, and you may rumors back from HP you days, but I would use illustration that at the bottom of the cross of Jesus, they have this soldier and the soldiers job was to make sure that whoever that person was on the cross didn't come down until that person was that. And we have a good tendency to get up on the cross. You know, we feel guilty. Whatever sin is that we're starting with. As I think, there are family life for work, life, and so we don't want it. So we'll climb upon a cross. But it's just us by ourselves and my question that I asked you guys, when your dates for you is who do you have a station at the bottom of your cross to make sure? No, no, no. You're not coming down until that Les has been eradicated. I don't know. You're not coming down until you know that ego centrism is dead. And so one thing that we see with Paul is that the path is the person. Jesus Christ. But the pathway is also the people of Jesus Christ. And so it goes back to that metaphor. The body of Christ is not just a fancy picture. Paul literally thinks the church he metaphorically literally thinks the church is the body of Christ. And so we don't just need the blood of Christ to help us overcome this. These sinful desires that are with us. But we also need the body of Christ. Um, and again going back to his reasons and collection. Quinn,

spk_0:   1:8:38
you know, finished with the fusions in Colossians

spk_1:   1:8:42
Paul comes and says that the fullness of God's divinity dwells in Jesus Christ and the fullness of Jesus Christ of who he is dwells within the church. So we have. Peter says, that God has given us everything that we need for life and for godliness. And so that's the presence of Jesus Christ, them inside the people of Jesus Christ. And so for some, that may mean counseling for some that mean going to, ah, psychologist for something, maybe pastoral counseling. For some, it may be small groups that I'm about. I have badness roots. But I'm really fascinated with John Wesley. And, uh, you know, his his method of confessing our sins is something that we just don't have a cz much in our world today. This that that bold confessing and holding up that accountability. And that's something that the guy in Roman seven doesn't seem to have.

spk_0:   1:9:34
Yeah, I really like what you said about the importance of community because, um, I know that, um, in places where I have dared to be vulnerable with people. Um and I remember when I was at HP, you actually, I was really struggling with doubt. And remember having a conversation with you about that. And I still remember the things that you said and just off loading that burden to some extent. But then also having accountability, and it creates an intimacy and it creates community. And it reminds us that we're not in this alone. And I just think that man, you're really hitting on some things that I think challenging a lot of what was. I don't know if it was given to me of his nature or nurture, but a very Western, individualistic sort of spirituality that I had where I often did feel like, Yeah, I'm in this on my own I've got to take care of this thing And it took a long time to really trust and bringing community. And so Joey, speak to you've talked about accountability as it relates to the community of God and how how Paul speaks to the churches as a y'all as a you're in this together, what does that mean for our identity? How does how does being in the community of God then help inform who we are? So that's how that's how we fight against what we've done or the sinful the simple desires that that would lead us to being subhuman, and that would destroy community and destroy ourselves. But how do we look to the community of God and see who we

spk_1:   1:10:59
are? Imphal. Yeah, very good. Let me recommend the book along those lines. First, about one of my you know I love to read I'm a bibliophile And one of my top probably 10 books of all time is, uh, miss Reading Scripture with Western Eyes by Rainy Richards and Brendan O'Brien. And, uh, you know, it's not just Roman seven that we come to its ah, all of the New Testament, where we read our Western mindset into this and one thing that they talk about this realizing that in the ancient near eastern world, in the Greco Roman world, it was more about community than about the jewel. That so you asked me at the beginning who is our identity, And I would say our first question before asking, Who am I? Is who is Christ. But the 2nd 1 looking at back in Paul's original contact in Jesus original context, the question wouldn't be Ah, who am I? But who are we? Who is the church. It's our first question is Who is Christ? And second question is, Who is the church? And again we have these these metaphors that I don't think hit at the heart of what Paul is saying. And so we say the church is a Ah hospital for sinners rather than a social club. Or ever forget the the kind of bear fur that a four? Yeah. And, uh, I don't think Paul sees either those. Even when he's talking to the first Corinthians church going wild, he comes and says, Your Holy, you're saying to buy your end like waves, like sleeping with his mother Long. Wait a second, you know. So So we look at the church and even the church that that kind of the Las Vegas Church of first Corinthians Paul looks them says your identity. This Holy a sanctified I'm as a group you don't have, you're not lacking anything. And so eso first of our first question is Who is Christ in us and the second ball? Who is the church within us? And so we should define ourselves by our community more than our own individual idea. And so and so that's when we see Paul often using the we and the y'all rather than the eye and the use. Singular.

spk_0:   1:13:02
Yeah, I think it's It's really fascinating because you think about Romans eight is one passage that I think a lot of people who feel shame. Um, they have this sense of not. I made a mistake, but I am a mistake. They often we often go to Romans eight to look for release, to look for, for hope on, for, for life. And it's It's in Roman's A where you have the we in the wee and the Wii. And so it's really telling to me as your sharing all this that, um, Romans ate this great passage. It just just sets people free from the sense of shame through Jesus through the gospel. It's in the context of community. It's in the context of a week. Yeah. Mmm, yeah. Well, Joey, this is This is just incredible. I think that, um the big takeaway from me today is understanding. Um, I know very little, and it's important to be humble as I come before before the scriptures, but also that, um sometimes my starting points we're off, and, um, it's easy to get myopic and to think about myself, especially when it comes to this issue of identity or sin. Um, and that there's a There's not only a larger world, there's a larger community of believers and there's a much bigger God out there who holds all of this together. Yeah, so any any final encouragements that you would give to our listeners who are saying OK, this is powerful. Um, I want to be able to follow the guide of Jesus the path of Jesus, and come fully alive and live this way. Any encouragement you would give any final words?

spk_1:   1:14:49
Yeah, sure. You know, Plato Socrates is very, uh he's been attributed with the unexamined life is not worth living. And if I could Jack that I would say if that's the case, that the unexamined life is not worth living. The unexamined faith is not worth having. And so we we need to examine our faith and examine our faith. It is not just examined scripture, but examined the way that we come to Scripture. And so we often come with lenses that we haven't unquestionably come to the scripture and it taints are effects that we read Scripture, and so that would be one point. Make sure that we're reading Scripture more in light of the context rather than necessarily what not. That's really what we've been taught. And then, secondly, just that great promise that greater See, that's in us than he. That's in the world that in Christ, we're more than conquers. And that more than conquerors doesn't just mean suffering. But we are more than conquerors over this end of the death that the power of Christ in us is powerful and effective.

spk_0:   1:15:54
That's so good. Well, Joey, thank you so much for for bringing all that you've learned all that you've meditated on and wrestled with through the years. You experience your history. Just bringing all of it. All of your hip hop culture reference sharing it with us today. Yeah, We appreciate you. Thank you so much. And, uh, yeah, for those of you who have been listening and following along well, we'll put some Resource is in the show notes and on the web site for you. Put together something for you to think further about what Joey is shared today. What he was talking about about examining our faith examining our life so that we can follow to use this and live the more we were created for. So thank you so much for listening. And we hope you have a wonderful day.