#009: Finding God in the Grieving Process w/ Dr. David Shepherd

Dr. David Shepherd knows many of us feel traumatized by the COVID-19 crisis. The stress we’re experiencing is impacting everything, from the way we think to how we relate to God. And as it so often happens, trauma triggers trauma, which can create anxiety and stress. 

What are you experiencing internally during this crisis? What’s happening right now in your immediate context that triggers anxiety and causes you to respond in various ways? How do you think God sees you or, dare I ask, feels about you right now?

Check out this week’s episode of the Live the More podcast to discover more about the spiritual importance of lament, how we can healthfully express our anxiety, and the wonderful work God can do in you during this tumultuous time. And click HERE to get a FREE guide to help you pray through your grief.

Dr. David Shepherd is Director of Ministry Essentials International and a trainer of international ministers and missionaries, helping them discover the work of God within themselves through spiritual formation and direction, soul care, and counseling. Dave, his wife Jeanni, and their two kids have lived internationally for nearly two decades.

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Transcript

spk_0:   0:03
Welcome to the live, the more podcast Will we explore going deeper and intimacy with God, finding meaning and satisfaction in our day and making a lasting impact in our world? Everyone, welcome to the live, the more podcast. Today we're so thrilled and blessed to have Dr David Shepherd as our guest. And so before I introduce him and get into the meat of what we'll be talking about, which is rest and anxiety and how toe how to manage all of that During the season, I wanted to start by sharing an article that I read this week. There's a site called upwardly dot com, and there was a woman who rode any renew. Right now, I'm not sure if I'm saying her name correctly, and she has an article entitled A Trauma Psychologist Weighs in on the risks of motivational pressure during quarantine and in response to the call for us to do and accomplish more during the quarantine. Uh, she any Renault interviewed a trauma psychologist who lives in Beirut, Lebanon, and the psychologist had this to say we're going to a collective trauma that is bringing a profound grief loss. Panic over lively hoods, panic over loss of lives of loved ones. People's nervous systems are barely coping with a sense of threat and vigilance for safety or alternating with feeling nam and frozen and shutting down in response to it all. People are trying to survive poverty, fear, re triggering of trauma, re triggering of other mental health difficulties. And she goes on toe to call for a gentler, more compassionate way forward, one that's less focused on simply producing mawr with the time that we have and one that is probably more focused on compassion towards oneself with all that we're facing. And so today Ah, Dr Shepherd and I'd or Dave, as we'll call him, are going to explore what this looks like in this season. Uh, what is rest look like? What is what is it like to manage this anxiety and fear so day? Thank you so much for being on the podcast.

spk_1:   2:09
Well, thanks for having me glad to be here.

spk_0:   2:13
So, Dave, before we jump into this topic, I just wanted to give our listeners a chance to get to know you a bit. So could you just give us a bit of your background And who you

spk_1:   2:20
are. Oh, I am from Ohio. If that's sound far back, you want me to go? Um, but I I studied Bible in college, then did masters in counseling, um, and Grace seminary, uh, masters in theology at Dallas Theological Seminary. Who? And right after that, we started our practicing counseling there in Dallas Fort Worth area center for biblical counseling. Um, and you know, just kind of the normal normal Christian life in terms of go to church, but trying to develop a Christian ministry through counseling practice and at the same time, my wife and I, we're very keenly aware. Uh, we were asking the questions back even before we got married. Who do the ministers who ministers to ministers, Basically. And it was out of those questions that the ministry that we are that we found in our running now, uh, emerged called ministry essentials. Um, So again, just how do we pour into the Christian leader? What does that look like? And then, through private practice, we discovered that that wasn't necessarily where the action was. We found quite a few Christian leaders had already given up, and so we started asking the question. What does it mean to be proactive? Preventative. Instead of building hospitals at the bottom of a cliff, why aren't we building fences at the top of that cliff? And that's when we started exploring things like spiritually formation, spirits, direction, soul care and things of that nature and developed a model and then took it overseas. Which in 2000 which is where we have been ever since.

spk_0:   4:14
Yeah, and where do you find yourself now?

spk_1:   4:18
Where in the world I'm in Budapest, Hungary. Now that's where we started, in fact, and built a team here. Then once we felt like things were up and running here we went to Asia. I took a pastorate in Hong Kong. Um, that didn't work out the way we had anticipated. We eventually two years later moved to Chiang Mai, Thailand, where we spent almost 11 years, and we've since come back him were developing a soul care center here in, um, a suburb of passion and built and built a new team because everybody's neither left or been reassigned in other in other contexts. So we're we're back here kind of figuring out what? How did have a launch this this thing and get it off the ground as our organization continues to grow. So yeah.

spk_0:   5:16
Beautiful. Yeah. And for those of you, um, who didn't put two and two together were my family and I are also in Budapest, And this is where I met Dave and his colleagues who are on his team were huge help were a huge help to us as we were walking through some difficulty on the mission field, as often happens with missionaries and ah, so I just have loads of respect for, ah, Ministry and Essentials International and for your colleagues. Why don't you tell us some of the things that you're really passionate about? They've,

spk_1:   5:49
um you know, I am really, I I love sitting with with people and helping them untaxed their stories in a way that not only the lightbulb clicks on kind of Oh, now I know why I do that. But more of a sense of that's not who I want to be and discovering who they were designed to be and who they really want to be because of the working spirit within them. It's it's really fun. Yeah, you get into really hard places in people's stories and some things that are just awful. Bond at the same time, to have to have a sense that there is hope because God, is there just a brief story? I had a couple that I was working with. She she was suicidal and the husband, he wasn't really in the marriage, But, you know, he wasn't allows. And so therefore he wasn't going to divorce her. That kind of a marriage. Um, and we worked and talked for almost a year and one day she was saying something. I asked him a question and I said, Why did you ask her that? And he just kind of toss off. He said, Well, it mattered to me and and I turned to his wife and I said, his ever said that you matter to him in your 20 years of marriage, she kind of set there and she bought her eyes, got big and she said, No has never said that. Wow. And I looked at him and I said, Where do you suppose that came from? And tears started the foreman, these eyes and he said, I guess I really do look her on. I said, Of course you do Now we see. Got it. Working, you. And I mean, he grabbed hold of that on and held on to it for dear life. Because really, truly, for a year, there's a sense of Yeah, I just I don't want to be a bad guy. So I'm not gonna leave the marriage, that kind of conversation. And so to finally see it, and then help him see that it was there, even though I believed I had to live in faith that it was there, Um, because I wasn't seeing it often, but he said he was a Christian, and I'm like, OK, it's got to be there. Son of a gun there it ISS and, um, just watching, watching him grow as a man. Um, once that kind of kicked in That that gets me out of bed in the morning.

spk_0:   8:22
Yeah. So it sounds like you're you're you're on the front row of people discovering God in them and discovering what God is doing in then.

spk_1:   8:32
Yes, yes, exactly. I've got all kinds of stories. I just It is truly energizing. Um, and then second to that bin is I enjoyed training. I've trained, um, pastors in Albania. Russia, Macedonia here in Hungary, and it's it's fun to help them learn how to sit with people and call out their stories and not just apply the Bible kind of in a behavioralist IQ, You know, if you just do this stuff and your problems will go away. But but truly, to help a person discover the work of God within them. Wow. So every stuff

spk_0:   9:18
That's great. Well, so speaking of the internal processing and things that might be coming to the surface, what do you imagine during this cove in 19 crisis people are experiencing internally? What? What have you experienced or what are you hearing and seeing?

spk_1:   9:38
Yeah. Good question. I really like the article stiff that that you you read here at the beginning? Um, one of our staff who is a trauma specialist, um, had written I think she wrote that jury. She had referred to that very article in one of her our internal posts as a staff thinking out loud about those things. And we're seeing a lot of stuff all over the all over the board. We're hearing that you pretty much listed the things already just in terms of, um a relived trauma triggers from past traumas. Um, people numb. I have actually felt myself numb. I've been walking around and walking my dogs and thinking, Why don't I feel more about this and really wrestling with? Is it because I I feel peace? You know, that's that's a category that we as Christians run to and rightly so or my numb. Just because I've had enough trauma in my life and I don't want, want, want endure anymore. You know, um, I don't yet have an answer to that question of my own, but it's something that I'm kind of rolling around in the back of my head and kind of praying. Frank Easter Easter morning I watched an anti right lecture on, um, the Crucifixion, and it just stirred me in deep ways and a journal about it for a while and then had to go outside. And just because what it raised up inside of me just felt so awful. In a good sense, this is a good thing, but I feel internally sold sick, who's watering the watering the yard and just saying, Lord, I don't know what else to do with this, but the hold it before you and to say that this is true right now. And, um, I don't even know if I want you to take it away, Fix it or what? But I just want to sit with you while I hold this. So, you know, I'm talking to people right now in Russia. Um, in other parts of the world, and every one of them were just going through various things. And a lot of it is location specific in terms of how the government is talking about how the news is referring to the potential fears that air there, Um, something. Some people are truly, truly feeling traumatised. And as I sit on the outside looking in, I find myself wondering what it's about and so task the very specific, you know, specific questions. Not not about co bid, particularly. But what else? What are the triggers? What's happening right now you're in your immediate context, right? That's causing this to for you to responded this way, right? Alex Sense? Yes. Yes. Yeah. So yes. And I think I suppose it's very curious me, Um, that here you've got a worldwide of end. That, um, is being experienced very differently. I mean, my life here in Hungary, our life here and 100 very different experience than if we were in. Um, it'll right, you know, And so maybe we're not feeling necessarily Fear we're feeling confined is you and I talked about before we went way started recording. Just been finals. Yep, that we're feeling And the restlessness that comes with wall. Um so those are the kinds of things that just from a counseling perspective, I'd be more curious about, Um what does raising up in a person? Um Then then I am concerned about what are the the conditions that you're facing? Does it make sense?

spk_0:   13:40
Absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah. And I really appreciated what you shared about, um, just holding what you were feeling before the Lord, this numbness and saying This is what it is Because I know it wasn t right. Who also wrote that article in Time magazine about Christianity, offers lament during this time and talked to a friend of mine on Sunday who said That's what he's been doing. He's been going to the Psalms and reading in particular song 13 and just lamenting and saying, you know how

spk_1:   14:13
long? Oh, Lord how long

spk_0:   14:16
and that that gave a lot of freedom to him. And it forged intimacy with him and the Lord because it made him sense that okay, God has got it cares about this. He cares about this emotion, and it allowed him to process it and and say, OK, Lord, I know that you hear me. And another you're in this. And so I really appreciate you, Uh uh, highlighting that. That ability for us to be able

spk_1:   14:42
to hold that before the Lord. Yeah. Oh, it's and it's so important. And, you know, just and I'm not my area is not narrow psychology, but I do know a few things. Um, and if you ask further questions, I would just expo exposed my ignorance on the subject. But I do know that because of this kind of ongoing daily stress that we're having prefrontal brain function issues, it impacts the way we were able to think and so making major decisions that this kind of stress is a bad idea, for example. And so even as we pray, even as we enter into thes kinds of things to jump to immediate conclusions Oh, because I'm feeling X Therefore, this must be true. Well, not a good way to go because your brain is not functioning well, it's It's not able to process everything just simply because of the trauma or the stress that it's facing right now. So you have to your room because of the chemicals, just brain chemistry alone. You have to give yourself some space to to quietly navigate this rather than jump to immediate conclusions. So what would

spk_0:   16:02
you say are the decisions that we don't need to be making like you what you're describing versus the ones that are like, OK, it's safe in this time, Teoh, think and talk about these things. But maybe don't jump to conclusions like if you were to get more specific, like, what's an example of one that you would say, Hey, give yourself some grace and some space on this?

spk_1:   16:23
Well, that's a good question. I mean, the obvious one. I've got somebody in mind, or I'm thinking, you know, don't don't divorce right now, E. I would say that pretty much any time, but, um yeah, but why is it that up? Why is that on the front burner now? Um um Oh, we're gonna move. Why is that on the front burner map now? And maybe it's more Those are the kinds of things. Teoh. Instead of saying this versus that, Um, it's OK to decide. Am I going to go outside and write my bicycle? You know, that's that's on a big bets on a big decision. But but anything that is a life altering, impactful decision, I would slow down on those kinds of things. And I would be asking, Why is that? Why is that a decision? Now? Now, Granted, I just heard yesterday of a woman whose landlord is he's going under financially. She may have the roof right? And so talking her through those decisions and what what are her options means something's were thrust upon you. But, um, if she didn't like her landlord and she's gonna try to move in this economic situation, I think it would be wise to say, Don't don't do that just yet. Yeah, but you know,

spk_0:   17:46
that's really good. And so it just kind of and to circle back to the inward, um, anxieties and fears. So that's a great advice on decision making. But, you know, let's say someone is really feeling the constant battle during this crisis with fear and anxiety. How would you encourage someone to to walk through that and to kind of handle that right now?

spk_1:   18:16
Yeah. Questions. One of my images of fear and anxiety and those who are trained in this would probably screamed that I got a little wrong. Um, but But I think it's helpful. It's time like walking across thin ice and a lot of the things that you've ignored in life, um, are under the ice and it is you're walking across the ice and you hear the cracking and there's the imminent threat of I'm going under. Of course, the first fear, the first fear at that point is I could drown. But really, when you push into somebody's story and you start to suss out what it actually is, there is. I can't afford to look at that, whatever that is, and they might be aware of it. Or it might take some storytelling and some thinking out loud and processing the emotions even come to the point of saying, Yeah, I know I can't go there. And so so again, this is a precipitating event that has stirred our hearts to make us stop. Really? It's an opportunity for us to stop and say what? I really afraid up. Well, you know, it isn't really I'm afraid of getting this virus and potentially dying. Um, you know, I can't quote him right off the top of my head. But someone early on had courted C. S Lewis writing time of World War Two. And his whole point was nobody, really. We're all going to die, you know, whether it's a bomb dropping on her head or a bullet playing in. So really, what is it that we're afraid up? Really? And I think it's worth asking that question. Um, that doesn't mean there. I'm not afraid to die. Um, not about heaven. It's just I don't want to be in pain, right?

spk_0:   20:14
And I Really I I appreciate that because it really gives ah face to the anxiety or give some more, I guess, intangibles to the anxiety to the fear rather than some nebulous thing that's just out there.

spk_1:   20:26
Exactly. And I think that's the thing that it it's not a simple thing to say. This is what I am afraid of, usually with a client I accept that at face value. But I also know in the back of my mind they don't know yet what they're afraid off. Um, it takes time to pull that out of the heart. There's the, um I'll give you an example of this way. When we were in Chiang Mai, a couple was sent to us from their mission agency who had checked out of one of those stands at gunpoint. And me that by itself is just traumatizing. They were given one hour to pack their bags, and this is the country, and the men stood. There was guns while they in their little little boys packed there bags to leave in a rush. They get to our house and, um, three days a conversation with the couple, you know, tell us it was like, Oh, my gosh, you know, and so it was kind of get to know you types of questions anyway. But my wife and I sent there seeking you write promptly calm for having someone burst into your home with a gun and say, you got to go He where we will shoot you, you know? And I was on the third day that the life finally burst out in tears and she said, How could he let this happen to? Well, how could he let this happen to my Children? Doesn't he know? And she went on from there, and it was like, Ok, now we're close to the few, um, can

spk_0:   22:05
t there in that situation, they're thinking of God.

spk_1:   22:07
God. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, Hey, we left everything right. We went and sacrificed our lives to go to the thing for him. And now look what he's Look how he's rewarded me. You know, you sit back in the armchair and you go, Oh, it's silly. But with you live it right, it's not right, you know. And so now all of a sudden, this I'm not safe, you know? Now you have images of C. S Lewis and the he's safe. He's not safe, but he is. Good way. Don't know what to do with that sentence until we're in the middle of it. Right? You say I don't like this, you know?

spk_0:   22:43
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I remember Ali and I had a conversation, actually, on one of the other podcasts about how, when she was younger, she believed that following Jesus would immunize their immunize her from suffering. And it took some time to kind of work through that and kind of peel back the layers of why she believe that was true and then obviously becoming a missionary and living cross culturally and dealing with a lot of, ah, stuff that comes up when you do that really brought that to the surface. Um, And so for this person, who during this crisis is experiencing stress and anxiety for them to name it is really healthy. How would you counsel someone to do that? Like what? What does the process look like? I mean, I know it's different for everybody, but, you know, if you were to give a couple of pieces of advice, how would you counsel someone to go about? That process is naming

spk_1:   23:36
that? Yeah. You know, way would say, what ifs are never healthy. Right? Um, to go the direction. Well, what if? But sometimes it's helpful to prime the pump and maybe even have a spiritual friends. Um, who listens, You know, I realized were probably at the time in the virus where we're all sick of, um, talking to somebody on a screen. Just just pretend you're in star track. You know there's something like that, but find someone to talk to and let them ask you what ifs. So what's so bad about? If you were to get sick, what's and and help prime that pump of? But you don't understand. If this then this. Tell me about that and you're looking for someone who's not who's not explaining it to you who's

spk_0:   24:34
not trying to talk

spk_1:   24:34
you out of. But who's helping you identify what is behind the state and fear he was able to Who's able to help you are? And whether you're a journal ER or something like that, she's able Just don't take it at face value. I'm really afraid of getting sec. Well, yeah, yeah, but what's so bad about that, Right? You don't understand. I have Children. So say more about that and begin to put words to and discover that there is something that's behind that. Whether it's the, um, I don't want to be an invalid for the rest of my life. Okay, Well, what does that mean? What does that look like for you? And put words and begin putting words to really what you're eventually come to is that existential angst that's it is personalized. And every soul say that is the worst thing that could ever happen to me, whatever that is.

spk_0:   25:34
Yeah, yeah, And so finding. Just make sure. And some understand, finding a trusted friend who's willing to ask questions and who is willing to listen with intention.

spk_1:   25:45
Yes, yes, I I just think that's valuable. Yeah, And if you could do it for yourself, using a journal or whatever, then great. Um, that self reflection is a very important part of our lives. And and it's not about self analyzing. It's about just not allowing the first or second answer to be sufficient. That's good. Just believing that there's probably a whole lot more that you're afraid of, then what you are thinking of right in the moment.

spk_0:   26:20
And so, having council people through things like this and having sought through this, what would you say? Um, in these moments, what is God feeling about us? What is he thinking about us? You know, because there's this, I think for me, the reason why I sometimes have a hard time lamenting is I feel like Oh, I don't want to complain to God or I don't wanna I don't want to come off. It's like I'm like telling him, you know, like job in the book of job, like telling him what this should be or what it shouldn't be. And so sometimes I hold it back. But But for in your experience and from what you understand in the scriptures and what you experienced through the Holy Spirit,

spk_1:   27:03
what do you

spk_0:   27:04
think God is feeling or thinking about us as we go on that inward journey of exposing these fears?

spk_1:   27:11
Well, John, I truly believe that because the spirit of God is within us. Gone delights in us, period. So you don't have an angry God that is just miffed. But somehow you don't get it and that you need to Come on, get up to speed with him. You have a God who delights in you who loves you, who brings hard things into your life for you to grow, to become who you were really truly intended to be. Um, but But the face we sometimes would put on him in the context of those hard things is that he's he's just irritated with us, and he's a mad coach. Kind of.

spk_0:   27:56
You know, the

spk_1:   27:57
guy was yelling at you to try harder, run faster, swim, swim or whatever instead of ah, father who's just thrilled with you. Um, and I'm so proud of you, you know? And I want you to engage this because this is in the way of you being who you are meant to be, you know, because whether we like it or not, the fear that is behind the fierce kind of a thing, it drives the boat. It's it's in charge, not us. You know, we we react out of those fears even though we're not aware of them. And so So it's in the way. It's, um, and so there's where I would see him cheering us on. And the funniest thing is, I believe, lament from the very beginning was what he provided for us to navigate these waters.

spk_0:   28:57
So impact battles over Yeah,

spk_1:   29:00
yeah, from a theological perspective. Um, I did a study on rest not long ago, since this was the original topic and I pulled dusted off my notes on this, you know, is on the seventh day, God rested as I was talking, talking it through with a group of people here, it the garden house in one of our forms. And I said, What does that mean? That God just stopped working? We were like, Well, no, I guess it doesn't. So So So what does it mean? That got arrested? And in that literature of the day, the whole idea of rest is for and for the king to be at rest and to sit down meant that everything was under his control. Huh? Kind of. The God is large and in charge, kind of a thing. If you want to be colloquial, that's some under. So everything is under his control and secure. He has brought order into chaos. And so there's your the Hebrew imagery of the spirit of God hovering over the deep. You've got this The opening picture for us. We were going to go to make a movie. Is just this this chaotic? Um, nonexistence kind of a thing. And then God speaks, and he begins to create the ideas he's He's creates nests that nest within one another, said the pinnacle is the Garden of Eden, within which he puts Adam and Eve when Adam and Eve sin sin interest picture he pushes them out of he cast them out of the garden. Where did he cast them? Into chaos. Wilderness. And that's where we begin our lives. Super brew mindset. We've already begun our lives in chaos in wilderness. And what is he provided for us to navigate that but lament. So you have images of the Children of Israel in Egypt. And the initial thing was not hate. Let my people go so that they could get away from you. It was let my people go so they could go back to the wilderness and worship me. Mm. And so you have this picture that shows up throughout Scripture throughout our story, if you will, of you find me in the wilderness. Yep. This is where I want you to find me. You know, in our worship songs in the way that we introduce worship today is we invite God in. That's not the way it is. We go and find him, you know, it's David. Um, I forgot what some it is. He said, And no matter where I go, you're there, right? So we're not inviting. Got into our hearts, if you will. We're not gonna inviting God into our worship event. We are entering into our worship event to discover him. We will enter into our pain and discovered him. We enter into our fears and we discovered, Yeah, that's the point of lament, and it's and and we see it from the very fabric of our creation. Well, you're going to discover me, and this is what I want for you. We've made it about an angry God, and I'm not sure that that's the best picture in this case. It's about a god, he says, I want you to know me.

spk_0:   32:33
And so what does is keeping on the subject of Rests. And with this dis in mind, what does it look like for us to rest during this time of crisis? Especially with God?

spk_1:   32:47
Yeah, it's a good question. So there's some debate on whether or not the seventh day has ended and so curious that, you know, God is at rest, right? And we have been invited to quote work. So what happened on the, um after after God rested, he gave Adam a job to do so. Go do your job. Name name the animals. And then when Eva's created, I want you to be fruitful and multiply so 10 to the Garden do dear to your work. But it's in the context of God's control and the security that he provides. So if we take that imagery forward and to say it is within the context of God's largeness and in charge nous that I can function in my world and I think that shows up again and Hebrews when it's talking about entering into God's rest, which we have narrowly defined only in salvation. But I think it's more of a sense of coming back into alignment that the God has got this. It's not up to us. It's so that's so now you have, if you will, the bottom line piece of I can engage my world and be at peace. Now there's peace part. There's the rest part. Something, indeed doesn't have to be striving because he's got this. Now. I'm not stupid, so I'm not gonna go out without in my face mask. I'm not gonna go out without the rubber gloves and stuff I'm going to do over these things because it's smart, you know, I'm not going to stand out from the traffic and expect not to get hit by a tractor trailer truck. That's not what that implies, but it does mean that I don't have to live in the anxiety of it's up to me. I can actually engage. My world was confidence that he is in charge of this. So so now at that point with that is the backdrop. Now I have to ask. Now we're back to the contextual questions. What is my context require of me? Well, if you will live in downtown Budapest, your context requires that you don't go into your courtyard and hang out with your neighbors because it's too close of a proximity, right? You know, you're allowed to walk around the block, but you still have to keep your two meter distance. Um, we go to Tesco here near us. We have to get in line, and they only allow so many people in at a time. And we have to stay six feet apart right before we get into entered into. So rather than walking in and saying Hey, God will take care of me. This is no big deal, right? You know we'll bathe the authorities and we do the right thing. But But again, I think monitoring the fact that, yeah, I kind of feel a little anxious right now. Wonder what that's about. Right? And I could go to my good theology and say, Well, I shouldn't be, but but is that what I'm supposed to dio? I shouldn't be. Is that compliance? Where is that man, Rob? God help me with my unbelief. Right here is a place that I'm not resting in the fact that you're in charge right about this.

spk_0:   35:57
Yeah, rather than Yeah, rather than suppressing it rather than suppressing it and saying this isn't what I should be thinking about, just like you said, putting it before the Lord. And I just think of all the passages in the New Testament Castor anxieties on him because he cares for you or percent. You know, if you're anxious about anything, present your requests to God, not suppressed them, not ignore them, right? Not, you know. Yeah, that's good.

spk_1:   36:25
Yeah. So at that point, it becomes very, very earthy, if that makes sense. So you're Amora. Wear off and listening carefully to what your heart doing in this moment. Um, um, what's what's happening inside of me is I talked to my friend. Where's the talks with my wife, which I check on my kids and I've got one of my kids is in in the US We couldn't get him back here. Um, and so what I feel is I think about all of that. And how do I talk to him? And I don't want to communicate to him and anxiety and create anxiety and him, Um and so it's very it's an awareness that constant awareness of where I am in relation to my world and my God.

spk_0:   37:15
Mm, yeah. And said sounds like practically for those of us who are wrestling with anxiety and fear during this time, one just being self aware and understanding what's going on and to, ah, having some kind of dialogue with God as the one who is, uh, in charge as the one who is good Father, who has ah, us in his care, having a dialogue with him about thes things. Um, are there any other practices that you would encourage that would help us engage with God to experience his rest during this time?

spk_1:   37:54
Um Yeah, I really think that everything kind of comes back to those those things. Whether it's you take, you take the walk, go, go for a walk, do the physical thing. Um, I I would I used to do this with with clients years ago is that it was actually the experiment. If you have heard of Richard Foster's book on Prayer, it's going prayer. Finding the Hart's True Home.

spk_0:   38:25
Now I have read the book on Discipline, but I've not read the book on prayer.

spk_1:   38:29
I really liked his book on prayer, and I I told every client You need to get this and read They reached Read the chapter, Do what he suggests until you're done. Oh, how do I know I'm done? You'll be done. You'll be bored so your spirit will tell you have on and just see where the Lord takes you as you learn. How pray Well, I think they paid me good money to watch God work in their lives. I really, honestly began to watch people change, and I wondered whether or not it was because I was helping them or if they were just learning how to pray and time with him. Right. Um and so I really I really am a believer in learning how to pray in the different with dates that are in the different traditions are this is a good time to experiment. Can I got nothing else to dio You've done your online work, right? You know, order that book online or something and just just experiments. You know, what is what is the prayer of examine look like on the what? A simple prayer. That's what most of us do is a simple prayer. But he outlines so many different ways of just engaging the Lord. Yeah, and which are just incredibly helpful, you know, um, and call it special disciplines if you want. Um, sometimes I think we have created now that spiritual disciplines air into themselves. Honestly, the whole point of a discipline and of prayer is connection with God. Yeah, and that's all you're doing is experimenting with not new ways of connecting with him and and listening to him and realizing that he is not pissed. He he likes you. Yeah, you are his beloved.

spk_0:   40:22
You and I know for me personally having having the space creating the space to do that on my own, creating the space to do that with my spouse or even with a friend of resume. Um, it reminds me that I'm not alone. And I think in this time, feeling disconnected, especially with my single friends, especially. My single friends here are in our church. You're here in Budapest, and that feeling of disconnection is really and ah, and so just having the opportunity to slow down and connect with the heart of God, um, it does help and then obviously provide that, um, that opportunity to connect with friends of resume, if anything. And, like you said, pretended star track, you know, just make do. But, you know, create the connection because you're right. It's that that disconnection is what's what's causing so much trauma. I think for people right now.

spk_1:   41:17
Yeah, yeah, that's very true.

spk_0:   41:20
Yeah, well, it work. So, David, um, if if you were Teoh Ah, direct someone to either yourself or to organization. Ah, where and how could could they find you? Do you, uh, if you could give us maybe the website for your organization or Ah, if you guys are on social media or anything like that,

spk_1:   41:43
Yeah, we're growing in that area of social media. Um, but our website is www dot m e i n t l dot org So Ministry Essentials International jammed into a few letters, not or GTA. And we've actually my wife has been writing daily reflections on coded, No grades, kind of from a spiritual formation, special direction type context or a way of thinking about these things. And we're about I don't know how many days away we are from launching than a Siris of reflections just on grief and trauma. And then after that, we are then entering into are choosing. We're choosing a group of days and giving it a theme. You know, we're trying to dio blawg blawg related daily daily retreats, um, kind of stuff that we do here at the Garden house. It would be something that you could meditate on. It kind of guided meditations in print. You've ever done something like that with a spiritual guide. Um, these daily meditations, um, we haven't come up with a clever name for yet something very similar to a white paper where it's it's more of the theology behind. Um uh, these topics and stuffing not to say that the topics or the way that we handle it is fluffy, but it's more for the people who want more Bible verses and more quotes. You're producing that kind of stuff, and there's a lot of people like myself wired that way. I I worship listening to anti right or Alistair Begg. Um, before I really get much out of reading Amy Carmichael, for example. Um, both have their place in in our spiritual growth. Sure. And so we're trying to address of Fuller picture of, um, how we all come to the Lord in our website. So So, yeah, so our website and then you have contact information. Great. Perfect gavel will

spk_0:   44:00
definitely put that on on our website on live the more dot com and for those of you who are listening, will have that in the in the show notes to the podcasts as well. So you can easily sync up with Ministry Essentials International and and check out the daily blog's Well, Dave, thank you so much for taking the time for sharing, for for taking us back to the beginning with the Garden of Eden. And who got is who we are just richly blessed me. And And I hope that it richly bless is the people who listens. Thank you. Well, you're welcome. Thanks for asking. I really enjoyed chatting with you. That was great. It was wonderful. And hopefully sometime in the near future will be ableto resume coffees in person and things like that. But for now, this is fun. So look out, Starbucks. Here we come. That's right. That's right. Well, thank you all for listening, if you like. I said, if you want more, resource is related to some of the things Dr Shepherd has been speaking about. We will link to his website, and in the meantime, just know once again that we're standing with you were praying with you and believing that it is possible to discover more of God even in the midst of this crisis. So be blessed and be well today and much love from the live them or family